Moving to the Motor Boat forum

[Nostrodamus]

Well, the sun is out, no rain for the foreseeable future, T shirts, shorts and bare feet are the order of the day.
The Med is only a stones throw away and we will be setting out on this years cruising in the next couple of weeks.

As we will be in the Med should I sell my sails and move to the motorboat forum or will I get chance to use them occasionally?

 

[boatmike]

It may be tongue in cheek but it's a valid question. Having come to the conclusion that around the UK I have either had too much or too little wind or it has been right on the nose when cruising, I have spent some time in the med and think this is even more the case. My solution was to sell my 37 ft sailing cat and buy an Aquastar 33 Mobo. Apart from being able to go from A to B a darn sight quicker unless the wind is over F7 (when I didn't enjoy sailing anyway) I can now go down the French canals without beam depth or airdraught problems. Of course Diesel is expensive so not everyones cup of Sangria but at 70 I find being able to travel in any direction when I choose to and predict my time of arrival to suit taverna opening times is worth every penny!

 

[Sybarite]

It may be tongue in cheek but it's a valid question. Having come to the conclusion that around the UK I have either had too much or too little wind or it has been right on the nose when cruising, I have spent some time in the med and think this is even more the case. My solution was to sell my 37 ft sailing cat and buy an Aquastar 33 Mobo. Apart from being able to go from A to B a darn sight quicker unless the wind is over F7 (when I didn't enjoy sailing anyway) I can now go down the French canals without beam depth or airdraught problems. Of course Diesel is expensive so not everyones cup of Sangria but at 70 I find being able to travel in any direction when I choose to and predict my time of arrival to suit taverna opening times is worth every penny!

Here is an idea by the architect J-P Brouns:

http://web.ecotroll.net/category/lecotroll/dans-les-medias/

The Ecotroll 39. At 6 knots it consumes 0.5 litres of diesel and with 2 tonnes on board you have trans Atlantic potential. In addition, downwind it can fly a large kite. For inland waters it has as an option of electric motors but, at €50k extra, it's a financial nonsense. You could do a further 70000nm with the diesel before absorbing the cost.

 

[Al Dickson]

I too am coming to a similar conclusion having just sold a mobo and bought a yacht last season to scratch my "getting back to sailing" itch - more than half the time we have to use the engine - The Botnia T35 used 24 litres per hour @ 21 knots - the Moody uses 7 litres at 7 knots - so the amount of fuel is negligible at these times, problem is we like exploring & it just takes 3 or 4 times longer to get places. Given weather and time windows at weekends etc that means we just end up using the boat much less which isn't good ... jury is out this season we will see ... perhaps we will get a decent summer .... maybe a Mobo and a daysailer might be the answer

 

[Nostrodamus]

I could also mean that on windless days the cheapest option is to put Swmbo and son in a dingy rowing and towing the boat like in the old days with the galleons.
Then again if I tried that I am sure keel hauling would be brought back on our boat.

 

[ripvan1]

As we will be in the Med should I sell my sails and move to the motorboat forum or will I get chance to use them occasionally?

Definitely keep the sails and practice your reefing, plenty of wind(s) in the med - arrives quickly, decreases steadily - get a book on cloud formations in the med as an indicator

 

[boatmike]

Nah! Dump the sails, get a big engine and get there in one third of the time.....

As Al says, if you are motoring anyway most of the time you will use approximately the same amount of fuel to cover the same distance especially if you keep under hull speed. The difference is if you buy a "weatherly" Mobo rather than a Gin Palace it might use a bit more fuel at say 8 knots than a sailboat but it won't be excessive and if it looks like cutting up rough you can get to shelter at 22 knots or so before it hits you.

I have been "sailing" in various boats from wooden gaffers to catamarans and have enjoyed about 50 years of getting wet, tired and generally chucked about all over the planet. It has been good but now at 70 I enjoy sitting comfy in a nice padded sprung seat inside in the warm in shorts and T shirts "driving" my Mobo. At first I thought I would hate it but it's going to keep me afloat until I can't stand up on my own and I love it!

 

[vyv_cox]

Definitely keep the sails and practice your reefing, plenty of wind(s) in the med - arrives quickly, decreases steadily - get a book on cloud formations in the med as an indicator

Unfortunately this is not the case. I keep detailed logs of my sailing and motoring and from time to time put the info into spreadsheets. It isn't absolutely accurate year on year as it depends exactly when diesel was added, some of the motoring is ticking over manoeuvring and some of the sailing hours includes mid-day anchoring. However, it gives a pretty good guide. Additional info - we sail as much as possible, down to about 2 knots over the ground. It is very rare for us to motor in strong winds and we happily beat if there is sufficient wind

Many sailors like to think they spend very few hours motoring but I suspect that if they kept detailed logs they might surprise themselves.

 

[[70521]]

Enjoy your new mode of transport.

 

[michael_w]

The answer is to have a serious Mobo like a Nordhavn or Dashew's FPB, and carry a decent sailing dinghy on board. No compromise!

 

[Houleaux]

Hmmm...

Ultimately it's for people to decide what gives them the most pleasure and to go with that, but I do wonder if the reports of sailing v motoring time is a lot to do with the weather that people are willing to sail in.

If, for example, someone chooses not to go out if there's a F5 or above in the forecast, it's quite possible that there will be insufficient wind to sail for a fair bit of the time that they are out. This is going to be especially true if there are deadlines to meet so that a high boat speed has to be maintained.

I'm also surprised at how many people motor when it's a bit windy - perhaps because they can't reduce sail efficiently to a comfortable level? Paying to have a third reef put in the main, and/or buying an additional, smaller, headsail to complement the genoa could prove a much better investment than the latest bit of electronic kit. The difference can be huge, making sailing in stronger winds enjoyable rather than frightening.

Then there's the cold - often cited as a reason for not sailing recently. With the amount of decent kit there is out there these days, it's not difficult to keep warm (well I don't think so anyway!). Those of us in the Solent can always keep distances short if it's a bit nippy (I appreciate that this isn't necessarily true for others).

Just my two-penneth - and I'm certainly not suggesting that anyone should sail in conditions that they (or, very importantly, their crew) are not comfortable in - but maybe it's possible with a few attitudinal and equipment adjustments to increase the time spent sailing rather than motoring?

 

[ripvan1]

Unfortunately this is not the case. I keep detailed logs of my sailing and motoring and from time to time put the info into spreadsheets. It isn't absolutely accurate year on year as it depends exactly when diesel was added, some of the motoring is ticking over manoeuvring and some of the sailing hours includes mid-day anchoring. However, it gives a pretty good guide. Additional info - we sail as much as possible, down to about 2 knots over the ground. It is very rare for us to motor in strong winds and we happily beat if there is sufficient wind
Many sailors like to think they spend very few hours motoring but I suspect that if they kept detailed logs they might surprise themselves.

Yes Vyv I'm a great advocate of having engine on when little wind as it helps fill the sails and gives a little umphh - my point to OP was that the med winds can whip up quite quickly and fiercely and unforecasted hence keeping an eye on cloud formations

 

[PhillM]

If only there was a sailing boat that could become a planing mobo upon demand.

Perhaps a business opportunity?

 

[Rossynant]

Hmmm...

Ultimately it's for people to decide what gives them the most pleasure and to go with that, but I do wonder if the reports of sailing v motoring time is a lot to do with the weather that people are willing to sail in.

If, for example, someone chooses not to go out if there's a F5 or above in the forecast, it's quite possible that there will be insufficient wind to sail for a fair bit of the time that they are out. This is going to be especially true if there are deadlines to meet so that a high boat speed has to be maintained.

Just my two-penneth - and I'm certainly not suggesting that anyone should sail in conditions that they (or, very importantly, their crew) are not comfortable in - but maybe it's possible with a few attitudinal and equipment adjustments to increase the time spent sailing rather than motoring?

Precisely the reasoning that got me into buying a old kind "motor-sailor that sails", heavy kind meant for heavy weather. So to sail comfortably when there is strong wind, and have some comfort motoring when not. With well protected cockpit.
Exploring interesting places mostly requires motoring, for instance Norway fjords we made half the time on engine - it seemed allways against the wind, no matter which direction...

Lots of people now in more 'daysailing' kind of boats, good for sunbathing but miserable in a blow. So they sit in marinas untill the wind dies

 

[Rossynant]

If only there was a sailing boat that could become a planing mobo upon demand.

Perhaps a business opportunity?

Not much opportunity. Take MacGregors...
I recall a boat constructed with this in mind (cabin cruiser, for lakes here) which had planing hull, redan-stepped deep vee; even a water ballast that flowed out when hull lifted on plane. Interesting, but didn't catch.
Another very small boat was mass produced here, the "Kormoran" (original design was probably from Sweden iirc) in both sailing and motor versions (difference being the rig ) mostly sea version with finkeel. Quite safe and seaworthy, sailing well, though original was fitted with too small a jib, probably for safety at sea; I rigged one with bigger jib for a friend, she was adequate sailer.
They could get at least semi planning on engine, outboard. Motor version had no keel, there was also lighter made kind, with smaller cabin.
Must say though - she was mediocre both ways. But nice boat when considered as small but safe, strong get anywhere boat. Slept three, two people could spend a week or a few vacation. Makes nice trailerable fishing boat.
sailing - http://bryza.akcja.pl/bryza/info/kormoran.jpg
mobo - http://wokabo.pl/files/DSC_0732_k1.jpg

 

[boatmike]

Hmmm...

Ultimately it's for people to decide what gives them the most pleasure and to go with that, but I do wonder if the reports of sailing v motoring time is a lot to do with the weather that people are willing to sail in.

I think it's more a matter of sailing for pleasure versus passage making. I often used to go out in the solent for the day sailing and tacked, gybed, ran and beat about for fun. Whenever going anywhere though the wind was invariably on the nose or died on me and I ended up motoring

 

[JimC]

Unfortunately this is not the case. I keep detailed logs of my sailing and motoring and from time to time put the info into spreadsheets. It isn't absolutely accurate year on year as it depends exactly when diesel was added, some of the motoring is ticking over manoeuvring and some of the sailing hours includes mid-day anchoring. However, it gives a pretty good guide. Additional info - we sail as much as possible, down to about 2 knots over the ground. It is very rare for us to motor in strong winds and we happily beat if there is sufficient wind... Many sailors like to think they spend very few hours motoring but I suspect that if they kept detailed logs they might surprise themselves.

Interesting to see Vyv's analysis which indicates that he has the engine on for around 50 to 75% of the time in the Med. In the Irish Sea I reckon I'm motoring even more than this. The short access periods of most of the ports limit the potential for day sailing so it's mostly passage-making in one form or another, unless you go out on one tide and return on the next. The cast iron necessity of reaching your destination within a limited time-frame (1 hour at Glasson) inevitably leads to much use of engines. Commercial sail died soonest in the North West. I see no shame in using my engine as much as I feel like, it's one of the two alternative propulsion methods of my boat.

 

[Houleaux]

Please don't get me wrong. I'm not knocking anyone's choice of boat or decision over when to sail. I also acknowledge that those of us in the Solent are fortunate to have a choice of destinations in close proximity with all tide access (although being at one end of it, we usually end up sailing west when we're out for the weekend - whatever the wind direction).

But I do maintain that the weather you're prepared (and equipped) to sail in has a big impact on how much you'll end up motoring. I also think your attitude to sailing to windward makes a big difference.

Last "summer" for example, we planned to cross from Chichester to France. The forecast was for a westerly F5 to F7. I wasn't particularly delighted by this but the wind for the next 2 days, though forecast to be lighter, was from the south. With 3 reefs in the main and a couple of rolls in our 95% jib (the 150% genoa had a day off!) we had a very fast sail close hauled with 28-32 knots over the decks - the fastest and one of the most enjoyable crossings I've had. That took us to St. Vaast and the forecast southerlies tool us nicely along the Normandy coast. Hardly used the engine in a fortnight. Could have stayed at home.......

With just 18HP and a folding prop we don't motor very well into any kind of chop. That's one reason why we choose to sail to windward if there's a reasonable amount of wind about. We go with the tide whenever possible - even if that means getting up early - and often keep pace or even overtake those motoring (including, to my surprise, one of Sunsail's F40s recently) despite our zigzag course.

Surely we can't be that unusual? Our sailing hours are way higher than our motoring ones! Somebody back me up. Please?

 

[Rossynant]

But I do maintain that the weather you're prepared (and equipped) to sail in has a big impact on how much you'll end up motoring. I also think your attitude to sailing to windward makes a big difference.
Surely we can't be that unusual? Our sailing hours are way higher than our motoring ones! Somebody back me up. Please?

Backing You, with all my heart.
But... As said above, now I bought a motor sailer. This is first my boat with any engine whatsoever. But so marinas require...

Well, last few years sailed on big, safe boats, with big crews, on northern seas. Just looked over record - less than 20% on engine overall, just fjords and canals. But we were not afraid of stormy weather and hardship on those boats. And must say I only once had a genoa set!
It's mostly the heavy weather, IMHO. Any forecast of F6 can happen to get to 9. So simple prudence prevents many from sailing when there is a chance of strong wind - some boats are not safe in this, or not seakindly enough for crews to take it. Why risk? This is for pleasure, ain't it?
A trip made cross North Sea may be an example - over a week in F7-11 on the nose. The only boat to go out west from Denmark, in fact... For two days we were actually blown back toward rocky Norway shores. Only reason not to use engine at that time, to motor-sail forward, was small fuel tank... with more fuel statistics might have been bit different

 

[JimC]

Interesting to see Vyv's analysis which indicates that he has the engine on for around 50 to 75% of the time in the Med. In the Irish Sea I reckon I'm motoring even more than this....

Motoring or sailing - I'd rather be in the Med than the Irish Sea!