Dyflin
Well-Known Member
This "German sytem" sounds interesting, is it something like this?
(http://www.harken.com/rigtips/mainsheet.php)
(http://www.harken.com/rigtips/mainsheet.php)
moving of main sheet traveller from hatchway enterance to coach roof
- Thread starter sailingrbg
- Start date
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Re: moving of main sheet traveller from hatchway enterance to coach ro
How do you control a heavy weather gybe, shorthanded, with a system like that?
How do you control a heavy weather gybe, shorthanded, with a system like that?
michael_w
Well-Known Member
Re: moving of main sheet traveller from hatchway enterance to coach ro
The German mainsheet system is a bit like the piccy, except the sheet runs forward along the boom, down through blocks at he gooseneck, round another set of blocks at the chainplates thence aft to winches. Best practice is to fit a set of jammers just ahead of the winches.
It's easy to control shorthanded. Jam off one side pull the other in and off you go. Makes it very fast if you can handle both ends of the mainsheet at the same time.
Powerful because of the winches, fast because there isn't much line to handle (well compared to a 4 part purchase.
The German mainsheet system is a bit like the piccy, except the sheet runs forward along the boom, down through blocks at he gooseneck, round another set of blocks at the chainplates thence aft to winches. Best practice is to fit a set of jammers just ahead of the winches.
It's easy to control shorthanded. Jam off one side pull the other in and off you go. Makes it very fast if you can handle both ends of the mainsheet at the same time.
Powerful because of the winches, fast because there isn't much line to handle (well compared to a 4 part purchase.
flaming
Well-Known Member
Re: moving of main sheet traveller from hatchway enterance to coach ro
Easier than with block and tackle!
The Winches mean you can grind in the sheet as fast as you can turn the handle and then let you smoke the main out after the gybe whilst remaining in full control.
And simply whipping a line out of a self tailer is much easier than struggling to get the highly loaded sheet out of a cam cleat to dump it.
In boats of 35 foot up it makes total sense.
Easier than with block and tackle!
The Winches mean you can grind in the sheet as fast as you can turn the handle and then let you smoke the main out after the gybe whilst remaining in full control.
And simply whipping a line out of a self tailer is much easier than struggling to get the highly loaded sheet out of a cam cleat to dump it.
In boats of 35 foot up it makes total sense.
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Re: moving of main sheet traveller from hatchway enterance to coach ro
See what you're saying, but I think I'd have to try it to believe it! You've got to centre the traveller, winch the main in close to the centreline, gybe the sail, unjam the windward side and let go the leeward side. And all that while controlling the tiller or wheel.
Doesn't sound quicker/easier than a traditional x-part tackle to me, where you've only got one end to pull in/let out - which becomes a single operation.
See what you're saying, but I think I'd have to try it to believe it! You've got to centre the traveller, winch the main in close to the centreline, gybe the sail, unjam the windward side and let go the leeward side. And all that while controlling the tiller or wheel.
Doesn't sound quicker/easier than a traditional x-part tackle to me, where you've only got one end to pull in/let out - which becomes a single operation.
flaming
Well-Known Member
Re: moving of main sheet traveller from hatchway enterance to coach ro
[ QUOTE ]
See what you're saying, but I think I'd have to try it to believe it! You've got to centre the traveller, winch the main in close to the centreline, gybe the sail, unjam the windward side and let go the leeward side. And all that while controlling the tiller or wheel.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, you can control the sheet from either winch at any time. In practice this means helming from the side of the wheel (in practice any boat with this set up will be wheel steered) where you can reach one of the winches, centering the traveller (or at least locking it off so it doesn't fly across) winding in the sheet with one hand whilst steering with the other. Casually removing the winch handle and uncleating the sheet from the self tailer, steering the boat through the gybe, then easing all the sheet you just ground in.
All done from a safe seated position.
It staggers me why more large crusing boats don't have this set up.
[ QUOTE ]
See what you're saying, but I think I'd have to try it to believe it! You've got to centre the traveller, winch the main in close to the centreline, gybe the sail, unjam the windward side and let go the leeward side. And all that while controlling the tiller or wheel.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, you can control the sheet from either winch at any time. In practice this means helming from the side of the wheel (in practice any boat with this set up will be wheel steered) where you can reach one of the winches, centering the traveller (or at least locking it off so it doesn't fly across) winding in the sheet with one hand whilst steering with the other. Casually removing the winch handle and uncleating the sheet from the self tailer, steering the boat through the gybe, then easing all the sheet you just ground in.
All done from a safe seated position.
It staggers me why more large crusing boats don't have this set up.
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Re: moving of main sheet traveller from hatchway enterance to coach ro
Gotcha.
Gotcha.
bbg
Well-Known Member
Going back to the original question -
from my POV there is only one advantage to putting the traveller on the coachroof - you can fit a canopy/bimini.
The disadvantages for putting it there at all are:
1. the traveller becomes inaccessible, so can't be dumped in an emergency
2. the track is necessarily much shorter, so much less sail shape control
3. being only (say) half way down the boom, both the traveller system and the mainsheet will experience much higher loads, so it makes them more difficult to handle or requires additional power (purchase or bigger winches) to compensate
4. introduces a potential bending point in the middle of the boom - the boom could snap if dragged in the water during a broach or in a viloent gybe
There are also several reasons why you might not want to retrofit, or at least to consider if you decide to retrofit
1. the coachroof has not been engineered for the loads, so might need significant reinforcement or fail if no reinforcement
2. this boom may not have been designed to cope with mid-boom sheeting, so may be more prone to snapping than a boom that was designed and specified with this in mind
If I were to design my own ideal boat it would probably have an arch over the cockpit to carry the traveller, like some cats have (and I think Hunter Legends).
from my POV there is only one advantage to putting the traveller on the coachroof - you can fit a canopy/bimini.
The disadvantages for putting it there at all are:
1. the traveller becomes inaccessible, so can't be dumped in an emergency
2. the track is necessarily much shorter, so much less sail shape control
3. being only (say) half way down the boom, both the traveller system and the mainsheet will experience much higher loads, so it makes them more difficult to handle or requires additional power (purchase or bigger winches) to compensate
4. introduces a potential bending point in the middle of the boom - the boom could snap if dragged in the water during a broach or in a viloent gybe
There are also several reasons why you might not want to retrofit, or at least to consider if you decide to retrofit
1. the coachroof has not been engineered for the loads, so might need significant reinforcement or fail if no reinforcement
2. this boom may not have been designed to cope with mid-boom sheeting, so may be more prone to snapping than a boom that was designed and specified with this in mind
If I were to design my own ideal boat it would probably have an arch over the cockpit to carry the traveller, like some cats have (and I think Hunter Legends).
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Re: moving of main sheet traveller from hatchway enterance to coach ro
>If I were to design my own ideal boat it would probably have an arch over the cockpit to carry the traveller, like some cats have (and I think Hunter Legends).<
And some Malo yachts.
>If I were to design my own ideal boat it would probably have an arch over the cockpit to carry the traveller, like some cats have (and I think Hunter Legends).<
And some Malo yachts.
kds
Well-Known Member
"I've sailed on boats with every type of mainsheet arangement imaginable....anything else is a compromise "
You havent tried them all, you know.
There are severe limitations to a long mainsheet between boom and track unless you have a very powerful kicker - and the crew to handle both. I use an arch with seperate mainsheets from each end, so I have complete control of sail position and shape from the beat to close-reach courses. Not the easiest to tack - but very satisfying, if you like playing with sail shape.
No mainsheet blocks cross the cockpit/hatch entrance and no-one can get hurt.
But then I don't suppose you have ever been trapped in the forward corner of a cockit by a mainsheet which is preventing you from drawing a breath ?
Ken
You havent tried them all, you know.
There are severe limitations to a long mainsheet between boom and track unless you have a very powerful kicker - and the crew to handle both. I use an arch with seperate mainsheets from each end, so I have complete control of sail position and shape from the beat to close-reach courses. Not the easiest to tack - but very satisfying, if you like playing with sail shape.
No mainsheet blocks cross the cockpit/hatch entrance and no-one can get hurt.
But then I don't suppose you have ever been trapped in the forward corner of a cockit by a mainsheet which is preventing you from drawing a breath ?
Ken
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Mainsheets & Malos
Anyone sailed a Malo?
How easy is it to trim the main (sheet and traveller) when it's up there on the roll bar?
Anyone sailed a Malo?
How easy is it to trim the main (sheet and traveller) when it's up there on the roll bar?
flaming
Well-Known Member
So you have a mainsheet arangement that doesn't allow the main to tack itself?
Sounds like a compromise to me.
Without wishing to sound inflamatory - can you tell me why the length of the rope between the track and the boom (which I think is what you mean...?) makes any difference?
A mainsheet and a long track are all you need to control shape and angle of attack until the boom is well past the end of the track.
Sounds like a compromise to me.
Without wishing to sound inflamatory - can you tell me why the length of the rope between the track and the boom (which I think is what you mean...?) makes any difference?
A mainsheet and a long track are all you need to control shape and angle of attack until the boom is well past the end of the track.
kds
Well-Known Member
"So you have a mainsheet arangement that doesn't allow the main to tack itself"
Yep - and I also have a genoa that doesn't tack itself - another compromise ?
"can you tell me why the length of the rope between the track and the boom (which I think is what you mean...?) makes any difference?"
Sit down and do the algebra - to achieve a given boom position you will need much more tension in a longer sheet - which will flatten the sail - which you do not always want. Unless you are willing to compromise ?
/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gifKen
Yep - and I also have a genoa that doesn't tack itself - another compromise ?
"can you tell me why the length of the rope between the track and the boom (which I think is what you mean...?) makes any difference?"
Sit down and do the algebra - to achieve a given boom position you will need much more tension in a longer sheet - which will flatten the sail - which you do not always want. Unless you are willing to compromise ?
/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gifKen
flaming
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
"So you have a mainsheet arangement that doesn't allow the main to tack itself"
Yep - and I also have a genoa that doesn't tack itself - another compromise ?
[/ QUOTE ]
Having to manually tack 2 sails doesn't sound like a good shorthanded arrangement to me!
[ QUOTE ]
"can you tell me why the length of the rope between the track and the boom (which I think is what you mean...?) makes any difference?"
Sit down and do the algebra - to achieve a given boom position you will need much more tension in a longer sheet - which will flatten the sail - which you do not always want. Unless you are willing to compromise ?
/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gifKen
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I set the sheet for the twist, and then the traveller for the boom position. So I don't see how that compromises my sail trimming in any way!?
"So you have a mainsheet arangement that doesn't allow the main to tack itself"
Yep - and I also have a genoa that doesn't tack itself - another compromise ?
[/ QUOTE ]
Having to manually tack 2 sails doesn't sound like a good shorthanded arrangement to me!
[ QUOTE ]
"can you tell me why the length of the rope between the track and the boom (which I think is what you mean...?) makes any difference?"
Sit down and do the algebra - to achieve a given boom position you will need much more tension in a longer sheet - which will flatten the sail - which you do not always want. Unless you are willing to compromise ?
/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gifKen
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I set the sheet for the twist, and then the traveller for the boom position. So I don't see how that compromises my sail trimming in any way!?
kds
Well-Known Member
I am sure most people would agree with you.
I have used both - prefer mine.
The important thing is to enjoy your sailing.
I used to race a dinghy called a fin, you could even plane off or add veneers to the mast to change its bend characteristics.
Never got anywhere - spent all my time playing with sail shape - worked my way to the back of most fleets - but my sail looked great !!!
Ken
I have used both - prefer mine.
The important thing is to enjoy your sailing.
I used to race a dinghy called a fin, you could even plane off or add veneers to the mast to change its bend characteristics.
Never got anywhere - spent all my time playing with sail shape - worked my way to the back of most fleets - but my sail looked great !!!
Ken
flaming
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
The important thing is to enjoy your sailing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ain't that the truth!
The important thing is to enjoy your sailing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ain't that the truth!
AlanPound
Well-Known Member
Re: moving of main sheet traveller from hatchway enterance to coach ro
[ QUOTE ]
Sit down and do the algebra - to achieve a given boom position you will need much more tension in a longer sheet - which will flatten the sail - which you do not always want. Unless you are willing to compromise ?
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think that is true - the only variables are tension and sheeting angle.
The point of attachment to the boom doesn't "know" how long the sheet is.... it could be any length...
[ QUOTE ]
Sit down and do the algebra - to achieve a given boom position you will need much more tension in a longer sheet - which will flatten the sail - which you do not always want. Unless you are willing to compromise ?
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think that is true - the only variables are tension and sheeting angle.
The point of attachment to the boom doesn't "know" how long the sheet is.... it could be any length...