Motorboat Newbie's Change Of Direction

[londonrascal]

Some months back I joined this Forum and posted about my wish to buy a Fairline 50 from 1991. The Thread in question is here.

I had found the boat I wanted and had some great plans for updating her interior, making a small changes to the heads (making them as one large shared ensuite/day heads) putting in air conditioning, new engines and a suite of new navigation equipment.

Having shared this here it appeared that wiser men than I almost had sat back, and collectively sighed. I could well imagine them feeling it would be an interesting project to watch unfold but really, what on earth did I need to do all this for with a boat of this age?

Well, I took a step back and considered things.

I liked the Fairline’s lines, but she also is of that time especially internally. I got thinking if I invested that extra money not in updating a 90’s boat, I could buy a far newer model with much of the things already in place so I then settled on a newer Fairline 55.

I still would want to make a small change here and there but overall she looked a tidy boat and while I would want to update her navigational equipment, auto helm and put in Lithium batteries, her engines would not need to be touched and it still had the little ‘crew cabin’ meaning I could lose one of the internal cabins for a working space/desk set up and still have 6 available berths. This is because my idea then was to use the boat to live on and thus berths could make way for more practical space use.

The only issue is the lack of these boats being for sale in the UK and it was searching elsewhere in Europe, I happened to find the Squadron 58. More cost, and frankly at first I did not actually like the interior as much as the Squadron 55 in some ways. There seemed less wood on show, especially in the forward master cabin, and the ‘utility room’ seemed less spacious without the handy drawers on the left, but you did at least keep a washer/dryer and freezer. What really took me was the massive fly bridge and the radar ‘tower’ (odd to some people’s eyes or perhaps these days a little dated) but I liked it.

The double berth on the starboard side already had a desk – I figured if there was nothing under that berth, hitting it with some good old fashion engineering could cause it to be a seat that converted to a bed. Two singles if you will split in the middle – the right side of the bed would fold up to make the back the seat (backrest) and the left side of the bed would be the seat squab you sat on. Slide out flat and you’ve got the bed back.

I did not like the vacuum toilets mind you, and knew of people who replaced them with more usual units but wondered if this would be a straight swap I wondered and would I really need all that horsepower? Mind you there were a couple of nice examples for sale in this country so that made things easier right off the bat.

Some time passed I was in St. Katherines Docks in London having had a meal and low and behold there was a Squadron 58 moored. Seeing her side by side with many other boats and not just sat on her own, something seemed to just ‘turn off’ inside my heart. She looked lovely, but she did not stand out over and above the rest and frankly neither would the 55. It was like a new apartment block that looked lovely, but as others rose around it would be lost in the landscape – I wanted something different. If the Fairline 50 from the 90’s was becoming something of a ‘classic design’ and I was looking for something unique, yet spacious and enjoyed the natural wood interior it meant going for something unusual.

I began to look at Traders – the larger 535 in particular, what a different track to go on – 1990’s classic, to large and powerful planning boats from Fairline’s great times, to something that has always struck me as a boat for those who have matured, they have had the sports boats, the large fly bridges and now as the family has grown and left the nest it is time to slow down and enjoy the journey and not so much the speed.

Thing is, here I am single and not even 40 and yet something really captured me about that exterior styling, inside too the lovely wood – it was inviting, warm and somehow timeless. Owning a Fairline Squadron would mean I’d be frightened to touch anything or be too radical with any changes making it look like the odd apple in the tree, but a Trader – they already are niche, they were made for their first owners own tastes so there is a far more anything goes’ approach to things.

So here we are – I’ve had a look, found a three I like of similar ages and now it will be a case of buying. I think I know from the three I have in mind which I like more. I get the feeling these are the sort of boats that appeal to a specific type of boater, and with the company’s history too they might not make the best investment and take an age to sell on, but that does not concern me and as a result hope that it might be the right time to act and take one of these off a keen sellers hands. I might have judged this all wrong on the other hand.

So just an update – the plans have remained much the same, the boat choice has changed wildly and while I don’t need to worry myself with engine changes and interior changes I still like the idea of adding some new gadgetry to proceedings.

So, let us see where I get in this new tangent

 

[rafiki_]

Good luck with this, and please keep us posted.

 

[KINGFISHER 9]

Whatever you get be sure to change her name to 'Walter Mitty' .... :encouragement:

 

[tico]

Do you spell rascal with a Capital R?

 

[IDAMAY]

You won't be surprised from my avatar that I think you have made a sound choice. The 535 is a fine boat. Other things being equal choose an example that has stabilisers. They will make your cruising life so much more comfortable. Good hunting.

 

[londonrascal]

I've long known whatever boat I buy her name will be Independence this is because what I am embarking on is no day dream but a rather large life change. You see I will be upping sticks from London where I have lived all my life, and moving up to Norfolk. Along with buying the boat I have the other small issue of learning to drive as without the Tube and Uber I will be up a certain creek without a paddle otherwise and then getting a new home - I will concentrate here with sharing the nautical elements.

I've not seen any of these boats for sale with Stabilisers, but I have done a lot of reading about them and their tendency to roll. The results so far as I can see is the same to asking what Varnish and technique to use - everyone has an opinion. Some say it is not so bad, others have said it is, some have then got stabilisers and would never go back without them but I recon as long as the boat is safe, it comes down to comfort. The rolling motion won't much bother me, especially as once she is purchased it is off to the Norfolk Broads (well River Yare or Waveney) and fresh water - though with Great Yarmouth or Lowestoft as doors to the salty stuff so to speak so she won't be used quite in the same manner as most of these boats are.

What I do wonder is the fact that on one model I am interested in a previous Survey report has noted that both the forward and aft heads discharge shut off valve's were found to be obstructed preventing satisfactory access in the event of emergency closure being required, or for testing purposes. I presume this means they cannot be reached as their is no suitable inspection hatch. Also these boats have reverse cycle air conditioning, which is nice but I am already thinking for winter time it may be cheaper to run either a hot air diesel heating system or a 'wet' system whereby a diesel boiler heats water to matrix's in each cabin, which may prove easier to install than air ducting.

This time around things should actually move pretty rapidly and not drag on for months.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Do you spell rascal with a Capital R?

Now that's subtle

 

[akirk]

Part of the enjoyment in making a decision like this is in the planning / investigating / exploring options - so don't be afraid to change your mind - better to do so now before making an expensive purchase!
And make sure that you go and spend time on the various boats...

 

[oldgit]

NFN ?

 

[londonrascal]

Some pointers needed please:

Rascal With a Capital R? -

NFN?

Anyway...While I agree to an extent akirk that there is a lot of enjoyment in planning such, you get to the point where you really got to stop making the plans and start making the moves. This all began about 5 years back with an idea, and over those years much changes were made as to what I actually wanted and then I ended up as a part owner of a boat which was handy as it taught me a lot about the 'dirty stuff' of dealing with the everyday running of a boat and the things that they don't tell you about when you are talking to those nice salesmen at boat shows.

For me this is just a dream to own a large sea boat and over time I have whittled it down from manufactures, types of boats, amount of power and so on and arrived at a Trader for no other reason than it is looks like a 'proper' little ship inside and almsot American in some respects of its interior. Since I no longer am going to live onboard, the requirement for working space meant a lot of the changes to layout and use I might have originally planned for are no longer needed. Despite this the things that I would like to do and in no particular order would be:

Fitting a couple of 10.2Kw Lithium battery packs. These may not last as long as the boat but sure will be fine for my ownership period and will allow things like a single cabin air conditioner to be run overnight without a connection shore power or the generator being run and then to be 90% recharged in an hour once power is available to recharge them. This is from a UK supplier called Energy Solutions UK


I've looked and looked and tried and read and come to the conclusion I still prefer SIMRAD over Raymarine so will update the auto-helm, radar, chart plotter, Sonar, AIS and VHF radios to all be SIMRAD. I plan to buy an iPad Pro as an alternative to a second upper helm screen and use the network to duplicate control on the iPad screen for times when helming atop. It looks like this works in reviews but time will only tell how laggy it might be.

Since working with Dek-King already and very much liking the results over a period of almsot 2 years, it could be something down the road to use and do away with the ongoing worry of the real Teak decks.

Anyway just gotta buy the boat first. I hope to do that in the next 3 weeks, I've got the mooring, I've got the funds I just need to decide on which boat to go for out of my shortlist of 3 - now here some wise people can help.

Imagine you are selling your boat its been on the market for getting on for two years. You've dropped the price twice and still no real interest. Someone comes along and says they will buy it there and then, no sea trial no Survey to be done and the money in Brokers account later that day for x amount. This is a low offer, though not obscenely so. However, if you do not accept this offer you are told the buyer has room to negotiate upward but and such revised offer would be subject to a sea trial, Survey and rigmarole of this being carried of course may be subject to negotiations based upon such findings of the Survey and sea trial. This would be in the more traditional method of a n offering being accepted and deposit taken and so on.

Do you go for the lower offer and get a done deal there and then, or risk it for the longer wait and what the survey and sea trial may throw up and the buyer perhaps walking away?

 

[Seastoke]

Some pointers needed please:

Rascal With a Capital R? -

NFN?

Anyway...While I agree to an extent akirk that there is a lot of enjoyment in planning such, you get to the point where you really got to stop making the plans and start making the moves. This all began about 5 years back with an idea, and over those years much changes were made as to what I actually wanted and then I ended up as a part owner of a boat which was handy as it taught me a lot about the 'dirty stuff' of dealing with the everyday running of a boat and the things that they don't tell you about when you are talking to those nice salesmen at boat shows.

For me this is just a dream to own a large sea boat and over time I have whittled it down from manufactures, types of boats, amount of power and so on and arrived at a Trader for no other reason than it is looks like a 'proper' little ship inside and almsot American in some respects of its interior. Since I no longer am going to live onboard, the requirement for working space meant a lot of the changes to layout and use I might have originally planned for are no longer needed. Despite this the things that I would like to do and in no particular order would be:

Fitting a couple of 10.2Kw Lithium battery packs. These may not last as long as the boat but sure will be fine for my ownership period and will allow things like a single cabin air conditioner to be run overnight without a connection shore power or the generator being run and then to be 90% recharged in an hour once power is available to recharge them. This is from a UK supplier called Energy Solutions UK
View attachment 66447

I've looked and looked and tried and read and come to the conclusion I still prefer SIMRAD over Raymarine so will update the auto-helm, radar, chart plotter, Sonar, AIS and VHF radios to all be SIMRAD. I plan to buy an iPad Pro as an alternative to a second upper helm screen and use the network to duplicate control on the iPad screen for times when helming atop. It looks like this works in reviews but time will only tell how laggy it might be.

Since working with Dek-King already and very much liking the results over a period of almsot 2 years, it could be something down the road to use and do away with the ongoing worry of the real Teak decks.

Anyway just gotta buy the boat first. I hope to do that in the next 3 weeks, I've got the mooring, I've got the funds I just need to decide on which boat to go for out of my shortlist of 3 - now here some wise people can help.

Imagine you are selling your boat its been on the market for getting on for two years. You've dropped the price twice and still no real interest. Someone comes along and says they will buy it there and then, no sea trial no Survey to be done and the money in Brokers account later that day for x amount. This is a low offer, though not obscenely so. However, if you do not accept this offer you are told the buyer has room to negotiate upward but and such revised offer would be subject to a sea trial, Survey and rigmarole of this being carried of course may be subject to negotiations based upon such findings of the Survey and sea trial. This would be in the more traditional method of a n offering being accepted and deposit taken and so on.

Do you go for the lower offer and get a done deal there and then, or risk it for the longer wait and what the survey and sea trial may throw up and the buyer perhaps walking away?

why would you have top of the range batteries and nav kit ,but gamble on a boat without trial ,you don't add up

 

[londonrascal]

Well, it might not be a very orthodox way to go about things, but there is logic in what I have in mind.

Firstly there are some known issues with the boat I am most keen on buying. I know also that some of these have been put right since the last Survey was carried out and only the most tame of buyers would be put off by what remains (in my opinion).

The seller and I know that there is very little room for price negotiations based on the work that may be needed to sort the other issues out, not to mention as I said above that some of the issues which were identified at the last Survey have had remedial work carried out on them already.

Now if I was to 'do the usual' and put in an offe,r subject to a Survey and sea trial, then it is easier for the seller to reject it, and me have to up the offer. There is a game that buyer and seller play with seller thinking (or hoping) nothing too bad is found and thus reducing the re-negotiation options on price after the results are in. However, there is also a lot of faffing about and in all honesty what if the buyer decided to change mind and not go ahead, then the sellers hopes are dashed anyway.

My idea therefore is to surprise the seller with a full cash offer - not too many people turn up at a boat, have a quick look around and say 'right I'll take her' and that is what I am playing on, and yes I also would take a gamble. But you see, conversely so does the seller because should he accept this large Carrot of a fast and quick sale and a 'windfall' at the end of season and in the run up to Christmas I have put before him, then he too has gambled for he could have waited and let me go to the expense and trouble of a new survey that then finds very little wrong and the seller wins because he would only have accepted a higher offer to begin with.

However, since the seller does not know what may have manifested itself with the boat since the last survey was undertaken what if a new survey was to find a number of costly issues that then mean he has to pay for such to be put right or lower the sale price? Effectively both seller and I are as much in the dark as to the current state of the boats true condition.

My logic is that the lower offer would pay for the new items I mentioned above, the current known issues will only cost a few hundred pounds to put right and so overall I get a good deal. Now of course when I have the boat surveyed after I have bought it there is going to be a degree of trepidation on my part wondering if I did the right thing. That is why it is always prudent to expect the worse and have a large slush fund to accommodate any mistakes you've made.

Turning to a sea trial. All I know is how the engines should run, sound like and have a glance over to see if they are within temperature ranges and making sure everything looks as should under the floor. In short, I know little about this so to really understand what is going on means getting an engineer to come out and be party to the trial and also to have an oil analysis taken.

Now on one of the three boats I like, she has over 1,900hrs on her engines - something I am a little put off by and feel that taking measures to look over the engines would be a prudent move. However, on another there are well under 600hrs - hell that is just over two oil changes and even the most foolish of owners could not have caused that much engine problems to develop even if they had not had the best of care in that sort of time (I would hope). However, it is a gamble on my part but as I know and have evidence the engines have been dealer maintained during the current owners period of ownership and further since he has owned her for over half the boats life, I recon he might well be a decent boater and looked after the engines - certainly no DIY maintenance has been going on or third party parts used.

So, overall there is a risk to everything, but since I am not looking at this to be something I buy, and then a few years later move on from I am not too worried about the initial issues there may be and as far as the boat itself goes one of the main reasons I want to make such improvements to it - let's just take the electrical system - is to showcase what one can do these days and remove as many of the usual compromises in boating one has as possible.

 

[Bouba]

What are the odds that the seller is reading your strategy now?

 

[petem]

There's plenty of boats with knackered engines under 650 hours. And remember it's the peripheral bits that will burn money; coolers, turbos, exhausts, etc.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

I've never heard of a second hand boat with "current known issues" that would only cost a few hundred quid to put right. Many tens of thousands might be nearer, especially as this is a large and aging vessel. Maybe this one is the exception.

But, as you're asking for thoughts and advice, I'd say you need a reality check. Your money of course so it's your decision. Going into such a significant purchase blind is a gamble, only you know your own attitude to cash risk, and how deep your pockets are.

 

[sorabain]

Some pointers needed please:
Imagine you are selling your boat its been on the market for getting on for two years. You've dropped the price twice and still no real interest. Someone comes along and says they will buy it there and then, no sea trial no Survey to be done and the money in Brokers account later that day for x amount. This is a low offer, though not obscenely so. However, if you do not accept this offer you are told the buyer has room to negotiate upward but and such revised offer would be subject to a sea trial, Survey and rigmarole of this being carried of course may be subject to negotiations based upon such findings of the Survey and sea trial. This would be in the more traditional method of a n offering being accepted and deposit taken and so on.

Do you go for the lower offer and get a done deal there and then, or risk it for the longer wait and what the survey and sea trial may throw up and the buyer perhaps walking away?

It's a bit groucho marx, but I wouldn't buy a boat where the owner accepted my crazy low offer without a sea trial.

If they accept it, it likely means there's something known wrong with it. If they're confident in the condition of the boat they would have no worries about survey/sea trial and that any negotiations would be over minor quibbles cheaper to put right than the low offer.

 

[londonrascal]

What are the odds that the seller is reading your strategy now?

I have no idea, but since full details have been posted elsewhere of the boats in question where I have talked about them, I guess that might have been a bit of an error on my part being too open in public.

 

[londonrascal]

There's plenty of boats with knackered engines under 650 hours. And remember it's the peripheral bits that will burn money; coolers, turbos, exhausts, etc.

Well that has genuine shocked me that people would allow their boats engines to get in such a state in what could well be a relatively short space of time (depending on usage) - that said, don't inter-coolers, turbos and exhausts need work on them anyway?

While the onus is on me as the buyer to investigate (not on the seller to voluntarily disclose) the fact remains that if I ask a question, the seller is obliged to provide accurate answers or face potential consequences down the line. This is why I've got certain items already clarified in writing as being fit, working, or professionally attended to with invoices to back it up.

 

[londonrascal]

I've never heard of a second hand boat with "current known issues" that would only cost a few hundred quid to put right. Many tens of thousands might be nearer, especially as this is a large and aging vessel. Maybe this one is the exception.

But, as you're asking for thoughts and advice, I'd say you need a reality check. Your money of course so it's your decision. Going into such a significant purchase blind is a gamble, only you know your own attitude to cash risk, and how deep your pockets are.

There are two sea cocks that are not able to be tested as to their operation so they might be in fine order but equally may not be and it is little use if you cannot close them should you need to in an emergency.

Since all the sea cocks are going to be replaced with composite versions, this is why that issue becomes a 'non issue' and part of the wider work schedule. The annoying issue is going to be making a new inspection hatches though.

 

[petem]

There's plenty of boats with knackered engines under 650 hours. And remember it's the peripheral bits that will burn money; coolers, turbos, exhausts, etc.

Well that has genuine shocked me that people would allow their boats engines to get in such a state in what could well be a relatively short space of time (depending on usage) - that said, don't inter-coolers, turbos and exhausts need work on them anyway?

While the onus is on me as the buyer to investigate (not on the seller to voluntarily disclose) the fact remains that if I ask a question, the seller is obliged to provide accurate answers or face potential consequences down the line. This is why I've got certain items already clarified in writing as being fit, working, or professionally attended to with invoices to back it up.

You're talking about a 20 year old boat, hours are irrelevant, it's all about condition.

Furthermore "fit, working, or professionally attended" doesn't really tell you very much. There's no substitute for a proper survey unless you know what you are doing and understand the risks involved. Which for a 20 year old boat are considerable.