Motor sailers that are more motor than sail.

andyb28

andyb28

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Good Evening All,

I am all over the place on trying to find the right first yacht. To the point I have almost resigned myself to giving up and going back to a power boat.

I have experience in a variety of power boats and have been learning to sail in a Mirror. Obviously a yacht is a long way from a mirror and I am worried about the transition.
I do have friends with more experience and they of course would come out with me to help show the ropes, but I want to be somewhat independant.

I did post up a previous thread about a possible boat that I found, but on reflection I think I was going down the wrong path.

To enjoy the new boat without stress, I think what I need is something thats quite happy being used engine only, but with the option to give sailing a go once we are out in the open and safely away from obsticles.
As such, I have been trying to find out what boats suit this.

I need it to be twin or bilge keel (possibly lifting). I would prefer self tacking jib.
Sadly it looks like I may have missed out on a local Hunter Pilot 27 which ticked all of these boxes. I had a good look around the boat and this feels like the right size.

Please could you help me by suggestion some suitable boats? My budget is under £20k.

Many thanks in advance for any help offered.
Andy
 
Most sailing boats with a sound inboard engine these days will be quite capable of motoring all you want (though not at power boat speeds!). You only need a motor-sailer if you want an enclosed steering position or some other aspect of that type of boat. (Outboards are usually much thirstier, so carrying enough fuel is a problem, and few provide enough electrical power to keep lights, auto helms, etc. going for distance cruising.)

Some older sailing boats may still have an inboard engine that will be 'under-powered' by modern standards, but they're getting rarer. (Even they will be quite capable of motoring the boat comfortably at modest speeds in calm conditions, but will be slowed much more by head-winds and swell/waves.)

My previous boat was not a motor-sailer, but had a good, amply powerful engine (14hp in a heavy-ish 23 footer). In part because most of our summer cruises were a bit of a race against the calendar, to get somewhere nice/different and back in time for work, I did hundreds of hours under engine over a number of years and several thousand miles (including sailing).

On one occasion we left Brittany for Devon with a light head wind (northerly) that was forecast to become westerly and a bit stronger. To make the most of time and daylight, I decided we'd head off under motor straight into the wind, and get the sails up and turn the motor off when the wind shifted. Unfortunately the wind shift never arrived, so we were still motoring when we arrived at our destination about 22 hours later!

On another occasion, in very light winds, we left Boulogne for Dover under engine. As we approached Dover we heard that very strong winds were forecast for the next day and onwards, which risked the boat and us being stuck in Dover when I needed to be back at work in a couple of days. So we turned for Harwich, and continued to motor through the night to get there before the weather turned. If I remember correctly that was 17 and a half hours non-stop. (The trip was particularly memorable because the autohelm failed, so I was on the helm the whole time, it rained all night, and the gas regulator failed so I couldn't have a hot drink or meal, and being the end of the holiday stocks of anything else were negligible. It was subsequently a long time before I could again face Italian breadsticks (Grissinni)!)
 
Here is a link to Andy's previous thread, asking about a Southerly 28.
Southerly 28 (A good starter boat?)

How much of a requirement is a deck saloon type of yacht? I can see that it would be very desirable in bad weather, or even if it is just raining.
Here is a link to the Hunter Pilot 27 class -
Hunter Pilot 27 archive details - Yachtsnet Ltd. online UK yacht brokers - yacht brokerage and boat sales
She has a 14 hp inboard diesel.

Her near sistership, the Hunter Ranger 265, has a 10 hp inboard diesel - the extra 4 hp and the deck saloon make the Pilot 27 a 'motor sailer'........ and the Ranger should still be reasonably effective at motoring (or motor sailing) to windward, but without a deck saloon to retreat to.
Hunter Ranger 265 archive details - Yachtsnet Ltd. online UK yacht brokers - yacht brokerage and boat sales

I guess that this is the Pilot 27 that you just missed out on?
https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/1996/hunter-pilot-27-3702064/

Here is another Pilot 27 for sale - but she is on the other side of the country (in South Wales), and has an asking price of GBP 25,750.
Hunter Pilot 27 - NewsNow Classifieds
 
If you are looking for something that is more motery than saily a Colvic Watson might suit. For sheer living space they are hard to beat.

For your budget you should be able to pick up a 26' or 28' both of which are frequently available with bilge keels. We use legs on our 32 and she settles as stable as a rock.

If you are interested, they can be made to sail reasonably well by increasing the sail area and cleaning up the steering end.
 
Coming from motorboats to sail, having a decent (plenty of power) engine was a must have requirement. I would have liked to have been able to helm from inside, even if only by using the autopilot, but nothing i liked the look of was in my budget. So i went with post #6 "a sailing boat with a big engine". This turned out to be a good thing, the boat sails well, but if i choose it will also comfortably motor along at hull speed.

Given your budget, how about a Westerly Fulmar ? Sails well, bilge keels available and some will have decent engines, i've seen a few around that have been re-engined.
 
As said, most modern cruisers will motor well and the choice of sail/power balance will mainly depend on factors such as accomodation and how massive or steady you want it to be. We once motored for 24hrs from Cork to the Scilly Isles in our HR34 at over 6 knots, and much of our cruising was done under power, more than I would have wished for a sailing boat.
 
It sounds like the issue is you are still afraid of sailing and only really want to play with the flappy things in dead calm.

If you can sail a dinghy you are well on the way to knowing the physics of sailing.

The main thing with a cruiser is the boat is not going to tip over or capsize like a dinghy will if you get it wrong. A cruiser will heel over as it sails, but you need to trust that heeling a bit does not mean it is on it's way to falling over.

Once you grasp that, it is a case of sailing in weather you are comfortable with and building up your confidence until you can handle less than perfect weather conditions.
 
Many thanks to you all for your help. This forum is such a great resource for a newbie like myself.

Some of the suggestions look good and I am looking into them further.
It seems most boats I look at have quite small diesel engines, ranging from 10hp to 20hp or so. This is a lot different to the boats I have had previously and they all sound under powered.
When you say, get a larger engine, what kind of size HP should that be? is 14hp considered good for a sail boat?

ProDave has quite possibly hit the biggest nail on the head above. I am nervous about it, I did actually google "can a yacht capsize". Probably a mistake as it brought up some rather scary looking links!

Overall, I just wanted to thank you, I had tied myself up in knots and had almost given up on my goal of sailing for stupid reasons. I am very much back on board. :)
 
Being a Westerly Fulmar owner I can say they are pretty vice free and sail fast (when you know how to sail well). I have a 25hp engine and can motor at up to 7½ knots, but cruise at 5 to 5½ knots.

Considering your brief I am going to suggest a trailer sailer which many forum members will be shocked by. The MacGregor 26M. It is water ballasted, unsinkable, able to dry out, has wheel steering and a massive outboard that can make the boat plane including waterskiing plus you can take it to any place to sail. The downside is they are fairly lightly built and the accomodation will be a more compact.
https://macgregorsailboats.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Macgregor-26M-Brochure-2009.pdf
This is a short 5 minute video made in 2008.
This is a 55 minute promotional video.
 
A Westerly Konsort with a good engine may suit.There was a pilot house version called the Konsort Duo. Sailing a dinghy is the best way to learn to sail,if you can sail a mirror you can sail a yacht.
 
Concerto said:
Being a Westerly Fulmar owner I can say they are pretty vice free and sail fast (when you know how to sail well). I have a 25hp engine and can motor at up to 7½ knots, but cruise at 5 to 5½ knots.

Considering your brief I am going to suggest a trailer sailer which many forum members will be shocked by. The MacGregor 26M. It is water ballasted, unsinkable, able to dry out, has wheel steering and a massive outboard that can make the boat plane including waterskiing plus you can take it to any place to sail. The downside is they are fairly lightly built and the accomodation will be a more compact.
https://macgregorsailboats.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Macgregor-26M-Brochure-2009.pdf
This is a short 5 minute video made in 2008.
This is a 55 minute promotional video.
Click to expand...
Ahem ... Re MacGregor ... where we live they are considered a bit of a joke amoung my sailing friends.
I have been aboard a new one with it's proud and equally new owner. "Fairly lightly built" is being kind and the interior has all the cozy charm of a refrigerator. I suppose you could safely power wash the inside down and there might be some benefit to that given their probable seakeeping abilities.
They thing had more of the aspect of a toy and I'm not sure I would volunteer to cross the Channel in one, though that is done in much more unlikely craft these days...
I probably will never get used to the strange sight of seeing them planing along under power, bow up, mast pointing aft, like something out of an old road Runner cartoon; do not hit something hard, like a bit of driftwood doing that, a very common thing here.
They are clearly aimed at the beginner/new boat owner market - perhaps not the most discerning crowd and with a bit of an "Oh, my God, look, it floats!" aspect to it.
I strongly doubt the manufacturer's claim that they are one of the fastest sailing trailer boats out there, under sail at least. Overall, I would consider them suitable for a lake, a smallish one. They are cheap, when you exclude the price for the "escort vessel" to accompany you when you get caught out in the 40 mile per hour (knots??) wind.
 
Laminar Flow said:
Ahem ... Re MacGregor ... where we live they are considered a bit of a joke amoung my sailing friends.
I have been aboard a new one with it's proud and equally new owner. "Fairly lightly built" is being kind and the interior has all the cozy charm of a refrigerator. I suppose you could safely power wash the inside down and there might be some benefit to that given their probable seakeeping abilities.
They thing had more of the aspect of a toy and I'm not sure I would volunteer to cross the Channel in one, though that is done in much more unlikely craft these days...
I probably will never get used to the strange sight of seeing them planing along under power, bow up, mast pointing aft, like something out of an old road Runner cartoon; do not hit something hard, like a bit of driftwood doing that, a very common thing here.
They are clearly aimed at the beginner/new boat owner market - perhaps not the most discerning crowd and with a bit of an "Oh, my God, look, it floats!" aspect to it.
I strongly doubt the manufacturer's claim that they are one of the fastest sailing trailer boats out there, under sail at least. Overall, I would consider them suitable for a lake, a smallish one. They are cheap, when you exclude the price for the "escort vessel" to accompany you when you get caught out in the 40 mile per hour (knots??) wind.
Click to expand...
I do not disagree with your comments but it does fulfil the OP's requirement. He wanted a starter sailing boat that was powerful (possibly like a speedboat) and the MacGregor 26M fits his requirements.
 
What ever you choose, in the meantime get put and sail your mirror as much as you can and gradually push your comfort zone. This will all give you more confidence when it comes to something larger.
 
andyb28 said:
It seems most boats I look at have quite small diesel engines, ranging from 10hp to 20hp or so. This is a lot different to the boats I have had previously and they all sound under powered.
When you say, get a larger engine, what kind of size HP should that be? is 14hp considered good for a sail boat?
Click to expand...

It depends on the size (and weight)of the sailing boat. 4hp per tons displacement is sometimes used as a rule of thumb. (Note it is displacement tons (i.e. the weight of the boat)that is relevant, not 'registered' (or 'Thames') tons, which are something else.)

14hp was more than enough for my small sailing boat of 23ft (about 2.4 tons displacement if I remember correctly). That would easily reach hull speed of 5 knots.

My current boat - 27.5 feet LOA, quite chunky and about 4 tons displacement - is fitted as standard with a 20hp engine, which most seem to find perfectly adequate, but mine is fitted with a 36hp engine, which is definitely more than enough.

I don't think you'd go much beyond the theoretical hull speed, which depends largely on the length of the waterline 'LWL' (not LOA = Length Over All) without a ridiculously vast (for a sailing boat) engine. There is a formula which gives an approximate figure for hull speed, which is effectively (and roughly) your top speed (formula can be found with Google). I've also heard it said that the length of the waterline in metres give very roughly the hull speed in knots (I doubt this continues to work in larger yachts).

If you tell us the sort of length of boat you are looking at someone will give you an estimate of hull speed and likely engine size requirements, but you'd be looking at probably 5 to 9 knots, depending on size.
 
Last edited:
LittleSister said:
It depends on the size (and weight)of the sailing boat. 4hp per tons displacement is sometimes used as a rule of thumb. (Note it is displacement tons (i.e. the weight of the boat)that is relevant, not 'registered' (or 'Thames') tons, which are something else.)

14hp was more than enough for my small sailing boat of 23ft (about 2.4 tons displacement if I remember correctly). That would easily reach hull speed of 5 knots.

I don't think you'd go much beyond the theoretical hull speed, which depends largely on the length of the waterline 'LWL' (not LOA = Length Over All) without a ridiculously vast (for a sailing boat) engine. There is a formula which gives an approximate figure for hull speed, which is effectively (and roughly) your top speed (formula can be found with Google). I've also heard it said that the length of the waterline in metres give very roughly the hull speed in knots (I doubt this continues to work in larger yachts).

If you tell us the sort of length of boat you are looking at someone will give you an estimate of hull speed and likely engine size requirements, but you'd be looking at probably 5 to 9 knots, depending on size.
Click to expand...
Agreed, 4HP per ton is common for a sail boat, 6HP/t for a motorsailer.

Hull speed is: square root of waterline x factor of 2.43 for metric meters, 1.34 for feet.

Economical cruising speed, before the wave resistance curve turns exponential: same as above using a factor of 1.00 (Imperial) 1.80 (metric)
 
LittleSister said:
If you tell us the sort of length of boat you are looking at someone will give you an estimate of hull speed and likely engine size requirements, but you'd be looking at probably 5 to 9 knots, depending on size.
Click to expand...

Many thanks, that does make sense now.
Looking at a 27-28 foot boat as my first one.
 
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