Mooring with carabiners?

[colind3782]

My mooring is a "bow to" in Spain with the usual two mooring posts for the stern lines. The posts have something like an @ on it's side set in to the top. I was looking at them idly last week and rather than pass the warps through the "ring" or hooking it over the top of the "spike" I thought it would be an idea to have the warp attached to a carabiner or similar and hook it to the "ring" taking up less room and much quicker when shorthanded.

It seems too obvious not to have been tried before so I suspect there are many reasons why not. Can anyone enlighten me?

 

[lw395]

Most Karabiners are not that strong.
They might be OK for a quick tying -up, or as an aid to an easy getaway, but may not be strong enough for securing the boat in a storm.
Compare the breaking strain with the rope you use.

 

[WilliamUK]

One thing you learn when climbing, is to check your carabiner is oriented the right way.

Oriented so the gate is at the side (so in line with the direction of force/rope) a climbing carabiner has a capacity of 23kN.
Oriented so the gate is at 90 degrees to the line of force/rope it has a capacity of just 9kN.

I'd expect a carabiner to move around when alternating between under tension and slack. If it moved through 90 degrees so the warp was opposite or on the gate, the chances of breaking the carabiner would be greatly increased.

In a bit of rough weather (chop, strong winds and lots of tugging at warps) I'd be surprised if it held.


That said... it may be that using carabiners would make mooring short handed an easier experience, but if trying it, I'd suggest using it as a temporary measure to hold you in place while you take the time to tie up properly.

 

[Seajet]

I would NEVER use carabiners for berthing or mooring; a big lesson from the 1979 Fastnet was a chap on the Inquiry showing how a single-action carabiner - on a safety harness - can be turned so as to undo itself, possibly the cause of several deaths.

The Gibb double-action safety hook came out for this reason, but for harnesses not moorings.

A Fishermans Bend knot or a chain secured onboard seem to work well for me; sadly another precaution nowadays is a padlock on the chain to prevent lowlives casting the boat adrift 'for fun' !

 

[BrianH]

My mooring is a "bow to" in Spain with the usual two mooring posts for the stern lines. The posts have something like an @ on it's side set in to the top. I was looking at them idly last week and rather than pass the warps through the "ring" or hooking it over the top of the "spike" I thought it would be an idea to have the warp attached to a carabiner or similar and hook it to the "ring" taking up less room and much quicker when shorthanded.

It seems too obvious not to have been tried before so I suspect there are many reasons why not. Can anyone enlighten me?

I have a similar post and pier constellation in Italy but moor stern-to for easy boarding. As is customary in the marina I have permanently secured lines to pier and posts that I cast off and leave in situ when not moored, suitably coiled on posts and pier for boat-hook retrieval on return. The lines are secured to the mooring rings by hefty galvanised shackles and I have spliced-in loops at just the right size that are quickly passed over the bow and stern cleats as I enter the 'box'.

I would never consider using a carabiner, which I would not consider safe for severe weather with its attendant high snatching loads, even using, as I do, rubber snubbers set into the pier lines from where the strongest winds come.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Just a thought.
Wouldn't a locking caribiner solve the problem of the gate opening?
A bit slower to operate, but more secure.

 

[WilliamUK]

Just a thought.
Wouldn't a locking caribiner solve the problem of the gate opening?
A bit slower to operate, but more secure.

There's still the issue of the carabiner turning. In fact, I reckon that's probably a bigger issue than opening. If the carabiner turns 90 degrees then has a force applied, it'll break under almost a third of its normal breaking strain.

 

[afterpegassus]

"It seems too obvious not to have been tried before so I suspect there are many reasons why not. Can anyone enlighten me?"

Ropes are frequently thrown, jerked, snatched. You don't want a karabiner buzzing about your head, paintwork, windows.
Karabiners also tend to have fairly limited gate openings so opportunities for clipping fixed steelwork are few.
Double action krabs, whether twistlocs or screwgates have another notable disadvantage in that they can be a real pain to undo after being loaded.

 

[oldbilbo]

.....it would be an idea to have the warp attached to a carabiner or similar and hook it to the "ring" taking up less room and much quicker when shorthanded.

This idea would certainly be quicker when mooring single-handed, and it might well be beneficial to have the two 'stern warps' led to self-tailing sheet winches. Like others, I'd be wary of leaving carabiners - even highly-specified 'commercial fall-harness' security snaplinks - in place then leaving the boat.

Perhaps a good compromise would be to use fairly-light-lines-with-carabiners to get the boat swiftly moored, then replace those later with heavy-duty mooring warps which will do the job reliably when you are away from the boat.

 

[William_H]

Caribiner

I use a big snap shackle for my swing mooring. It attaches to a large saddle bolted half way down the bow.
It is the type of SS with a bar that springs into place to stop the hook falling off. It has been used now for about 5 years without concern although of course the attachment is backed up by another rope to the mooring cleat on deck.
Strangely recently I went to the boat to find the snap shackle off and attached to the other rope. I can only imagine that the other rope has caught and opened the bar then lifted the hook off leaving it attached to the other mooring rope. That is unless someone has tampered with the attachment or I forgot to attach it.
The idea of a caribiner or snap shackle makes attachment quick but also means you can have a proper thimble on the rope to minimise chaing. but make sure if you leave the boat that there is a backup or at least that disconnection will not be disastrous. good luck olewill

 

[nathanlee]

I would NEVER use carabiners for berthing or mooring; a big lesson from the 1979 Fastnet was a chap on the Inquiry showing how a single-action carabiner - on a safety harness - can be turned so as to undo itself, possibly the cause of several deaths.

A screwgate will fix that. As for the krab moving through 90 degrees and becoming weaker, a simple rubber band to retain the rope will solve that.

One thing though, metal on metal is never a good idea, so I'd have some sort of rope loop around the mooring ring/cleat rather than attaching the krab directly to it.

Ultimately, all climbing carbiners have their strength ratings printed on them. Work out if the weight of your boat is likely to come close. I should think a screwgate krab will comfortably take the weight of a 15 stone bloke falling 30 feet. I'll let you work out if a 10 ton boat moving two feet will produce similar forces.

 

[colind3782]

Thanks for all the answers boys and girls. Gives me something to think about

 

[William_H]

Metal to metal contact

One thing though, metal on metal is never a good idea, so I'd have some sort of rope loop around the mooring ring/cleat rather than attaching the krab directly to it.

Surely you mean the opposite. There is a fair bit of metal to metal contact in a chain. I would go for a metal thimble to protect the rope and ensure metal to metal contact. Sure it will wear but slowly. olewill

 

[oldbilbo]

Peeps should be aware that much of the strength ( rated, tested, supposed ) of alloy karabiners/mousquetons/snaplinks comes from the condition of the outer layer. Should this become abraded or heated considerably - as is possible during abseiling, for example - then the resultant device is much weakened.

 

[nathanlee]

Surely you mean the opposite. There is a fair bit of metal to metal contact in a chain. I would go for a metal thimble to protect the rope and ensure metal to metal contact. Sure it will wear but slowly. olewill

For shock loads, I was always taught that metal on metal is bad. Chain is unlikely to be put under a shock load. Even at anchor in rough conditions.