chriss999
Well-Known Member
Prob not.
But maybe lassoing is OK when done gracefully, in slow motion, wearing a blazer and yachting cap?
Mooring to a buoy
- Thread starter Sybarite
- Start date
Prob not.
But maybe lassoing is OK when done gracefully, in slow motion, wearing a blazer and yachting cap?
RichardS
N/A
Or like AIS being better at night....
Or so many threads on here about how we can pick up targets at 300, 400, 500 miles away across open sea at night....
..........
Funnily enough, I was sitting in the snug bar of the Dog and Partridge just the other day when my mate Jasper observed that one can get enhanced VHF propagation across the sea because temperature inversions occur frequently along coastal areas bordering large bodies of water. He vouchsafed that this is the result of the movement of cool, humid air shortly after sunset when the ground air cools more quickly than the upper air layers.
I said "Who'da thunk it" and he replied that there's a fella over on Scuttlebutt who's struggling with the concept.
Richard
awol
Well-Known Member
Funnily enough, I was sitting in the snug bar of the Dog and Partridge just the other day when my mate Jasper observed that one can get enhanced VHF propagation across the sea because temperature inversions occur frequently along coastal areas bordering large bodies of water. He vouchsafed that this is the result of the movement of cool, humid air shortly after sunset when the ground air cools more quickly than the upper air layers.
I said "Who'da thunk it" and he replied that there's a fella over on Scuttlebutt who's struggling with the concept.
Richard
Wow! Who would have thought that coastal effects could extend 500 miles across open sea. And I thought it might be something to do with tropospheric propagation.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
I own my mooring and pay to maintain it (and replace the buoy if needed!) I’ve also (very occasionally) lassoed a mooring buoy.
There are two or three things that don’t make much sense to me in this whole debate.
Firstly the idea that there’s one PROPER way to do something. There are often multiple ways to achieve something on a boat. Some are better than others and which one is better often depends on the circumstances. Doing things efficiently and well whilst causing least wear and damage is part of seamanship. Lassoing an inflatable buoy and damaging it is extremely poor seamanship and completely out of order imho.
Choose an appropriate method for the circumstances. If there’s a pickup buoy and a mooring strop then surely most people would pick that up with a boathook as their first option. If it’s a big metal or solid buoy with no strop then lassoing it to hold the boat still for a few moments while you connect to the eye or shackle on the top (hopefully with a round turn and not just looped through) is perfectly good seamanship.
There are two or three things that don’t make much sense to me in this whole debate.
Firstly the idea that there’s one PROPER way to do something. There are often multiple ways to achieve something on a boat. Some are better than others and which one is better often depends on the circumstances. Doing things efficiently and well whilst causing least wear and damage is part of seamanship. Lassoing an inflatable buoy and damaging it is extremely poor seamanship and completely out of order imho.
Choose an appropriate method for the circumstances. If there’s a pickup buoy and a mooring strop then surely most people would pick that up with a boathook as their first option. If it’s a big metal or solid buoy with no strop then lassoing it to hold the boat still for a few moments while you connect to the eye or shackle on the top (hopefully with a round turn and not just looped through) is perfectly good seamanship.
RichardS
N/A
lw395
Well-Known Member
But a large part of the problem in the Solent seems to be that sailing schools want to practise on nice soft buoys which won't damage their yachts when their students are inevitably imperfect at the task. And they use other people's buoys, instead of paying for their own. Nobody ever needed to lasso my buoy, it always had a pennant and a pick up on it.
There seems to be too many RYA instructors who have no regard for other people's property.
GHA
Well-Known Member
No problem with the concept, it's the total lack of evidence throws a spanner in the works.Funnily enough, I was sitting in the snug bar of the Dog and Partridge just the other day when my mate Jasper observed that one can get enhanced VHF propagation across the sea because temperature inversions occur frequently along coastal areas bordering large bodies of water. He vouchsafed that this is the result of the movement of cool, humid air shortly after sunset when the ground air cools more quickly than the upper air layers.
I said "Who'da thunk it" and he replied that there's a fella over on Scuttlebutt who's struggling with the concept.
Richard
6 days and out of 6 peaks just one at night.
But your right of course, bloke down the pub is much better than lack of google links and all the evidence being to the contrary.
Then there's all those "so many threads on here about how we can pick up targets at 300, 400, 500 miles away across open sea at night".
Couldn't find those - did you just make that bit up?
Ever admitted to being wrong in your life?
Cos you are now.
johnalison
Well-Known Member
I entirely agree with your first comment and hope that I have not been guilty of transgression. I do think though that there some cases where there is a sure way of not doing something, or at least only with great caution, such as approaching a pontoon down-tide.
As for your round turn, my improvement on this is to secure temporarily with a single loop and use a second line, making a cow-hitch with the spliced loop. This involves passing the loop through the ring, back to the boat, passing the other end through the loop and dropping the loop down to the buoy. A light line on the loop is used to enable recovery later. The first mooring line can then be loosened and left as a back-up.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
Perhaps you missed the post I’ve quoted? If RYA schools are damaging people’s property then they are neither practicing good seamanship nor complying with requests/instructions from the RYA.
Old Bumbulum
Well-Known Member
Fascinating thread.
It makes me wonder, though, just how many yotties are even aware that lassoing a buoy can cause such angst, let alone do any damage. Until ten minutes ago I was amongst them! People who don't avidly read yachting fora on t'internet (ie most yotties, I suspect) are highly likely to be completely ignorant of this storm in a teacup, so maybe cut them some slack.
It certainly never occured to me that lassoing could possibly damage something as substantial as a mooring.
It makes me wonder, though, just how many yotties are even aware that lassoing a buoy can cause such angst, let alone do any damage. Until ten minutes ago I was amongst them! People who don't avidly read yachting fora on t'internet (ie most yotties, I suspect) are highly likely to be completely ignorant of this storm in a teacup, so maybe cut them some slack.
It certainly never occured to me that lassoing could possibly damage something as substantial as a mooring.
lw395
Well-Known Member
Then the RYA needs to do some quality control.
To be fair, this may have improved in the last few years regarding buoys, as we avoid the issue by never leaving our buoys susceptible and have moved to a mooring area less attractive to the idiots.
What is the guidance in the latest YM/DS/ICC course materials?
[70521]
Well-Known Member
I am. Lassoing is one of the tools in the toolkit. I only ever use it on buoys that don't have a pickup buoy or in extremis.
oldmanofthehills
Well-Known Member
No problem with the concept, it's the total lack of evidence throws a spanner in the works.
6 days and out of 6 peaks just one at night. .
We are of course off thread but this is really interesting. If area covered at night is 40k sq kilometres that is an area 200km by 200km, and 10K sq kilometres is still 100km by 100km. Which means that at night I should hear up to 100km away and in day up to 50km way.
As I cant get VHF CG reception more than about 10km off Ifracombe I am intrigued. What or how is this marine VHF being received? is it just random messages and interference? I note however that I heard French CG Securite messages about 50 miles off Ushant on the way to Scilly at night. So is the limitation due to poor UK CG transmitter and all yachts being sub-optimum as transmitting or receiving stations?
A1Sailor
...
Cutting some slack is what mooring owners don't want you to do.
davidlhill
Well-Known Member
+1
I've sailed for over 30 years and have never heard of this problem.
If there is a secondary floater - I grab that.
If there is just the one and is quite small, with the eye on top, then I attempt the hook the eye, pull up, mooring line through and drop route.
If it's just the one and quite large, I assume it's too heavy to lift so use the lasso method to temporarily moor up while sorting out getting the mooring line through the ring.
GHA
Well-Known Member
Sorry, should have put it the link, it's the area covered in Sqr Km tab on the right -https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/stations/2324/_:d01f236864faae9bb42ba76e529a1ec4
It's vessels received by an marine traffic AIS station near Faro. Mirrored my results on AIS receive last play and seems as good an indicators as any for logging long distance AIS reception.
Which doesn't seem like it cares much about day and night, or if anything prefers day.
One near you > https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/stations/2717/_:d01f236864faae9bb42ba76e529a1ec4
Maybe tropo effects are much rarer up where you are.
oldmanofthehills
Well-Known Member
Many thanks GHA for that ,and though it relates to reception of AIS data by a coastal station it might well explain better range of VHF voice messages nearer the Brittany coast compared with cold damp Bristol Channel. Your Faro reception regularly picks things up 100NM out where as Ilfracombe seems rarely to do more than about 20NM.
RichardS
N/A
It looks like Jasper's Googling skills have met their equal.
This is Haydude's explanation from 4 years ago:
It is due to radio waves propagation which is affected by ionisation of the upper atmosphere. Line of sight reception is usually guaranteed but with the right condition waves bounce off the different ionised levels of the ionosphere and thus cover longer distances. Ionisation varies day/night and depends on solar activity. More sun spots for example give more interference during the day. The best times can be at sunset when the ionisation is stronger but there is less direct interference from the sun. VHF having about 2m waves requires lots of ionisation to propagate and thus works better at the latitudes where the OP is.
The OP is me, natch, and where I am is the Ionian. :encouragement:
Richard
Last edited:
awol
Well-Known Member
Did Jasper vote pro-Brexit?
GHA
Well-Known Member
It looks like Jasper's Googling skills have met their equal.
This is Haydude's explanation from 4 years ago:
It is due to radio waves propagation which is affected by ionisation of the upper atmosphere. Line of sight reception is usually guaranteed but with the right condition waves bounce off the different ionised levels of the ionosphere and thus cover longer distances. Ionisation varies day/night and depends on solar activity. More sun spots for example give more interference during the day. The best times can be at sunset when the ionisation is stronger but there is less direct interference from the sun. VHF having about 2m waves requires lots of ionisation to propagate and thus works better at the latitudes where the OP is.
The OP is me, natch, and where I am is the Ionian. :encouragement:
Richard
Ionospheric propagation isn't completely unknown for VHF, but it's generally accepted that propogataion distance increase will be very likely to be tropospheic. Not only that but ionospheric propagation will be tend to be in the thousands of miles, not 2 or 3 hundred. Haydude got it wrong.
So no go there, see an increase in AIS distance, look to the troposhere. And look at the data - which shows no "only at night", Best stop digging when in a hole...
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/4051354/
A second on google. VHF tends to pass straight through the ionosphere.
Still no sign at all about - "so many threads on here about how we can pick up targets at 300, 400, 500 miles away across open sea at night".........Make that up did you??