Mooring options

[steveej]

I admire your optimism

1. If you are thinking of living aboard in this country then I would suggest you do a lot more research on the realities of what this entails. Main issues are dealing with the winter, clubs not wanting you living full time on the boat, having to walk to the shower in the freezing rain in January etc. Also, a 40ft boat is not soo good for channel cruising as it is too big to get into a lot of places.
2. You will not find a second hand boat that does not need at least some initial refit and the bigger the boat the bigger this becomes an issue. There will also be things that are impossible for the surveyor to check and when you receive the survey report it will be heavily caveated as such. My experience is that surveyors will air on the side of caution and will be advising primary, secondary and advisory defects.
3. Here is where you do actually have some options, but you need to compare the annual cost including lifts and winter storage. Old boats pre 1990 should be taken out of the water to dry out for at least some of the winter, the longer the better. A 40 ft fin keel will fall over in the yard unless it is chocked up or in a cradle - this is an additional cost! so is the pressure washer in most places!! Don't compare monthly berthing charges but the annual cost (parking + cranes + pressure wash + chocking and shoring up).
4. See above, if you want to keep the boat operational and actually go sailing in it, there is a minimum level of routine maintenance and not all of it can be done with the boat in the water. Now I am not saying you have to use the Marina's cranes and storage area. You could take the boat somewhere else for winter layup, but you need to work out a rough plan of options and costs, but the point I am making is that you need look at the annual costs not just the monthly parking charges.
5. Again in my view, if you actually want to go sailing, there is a minimum level of ancillary equipment needed some of which may be part of the deal and come with the boat. There can be some savings, rubber wellies versus expensive leather boots for example but every sailor I have ever met will wear foul weather gear (some sort of supposedly waterproof and supposedly breathable but not very clothing when the weather is bad). We are in the bristol channel sailing temperate waters and not in the tropics after all. Regards the outboard, we have string tidal streams. There are many places to go for the weekend that require anchoring and taking the dinghy ashore. This is not a 100ft dinghy ride and trying to scull back to the boat you are either going to kill yourself, never make it back to the boat or end up asking for some kind of assistance to somehow get you back to the boat (which may or may not be available). The oars are a safety backup should the outboard conk out half way back to the boat.

I'm not trying to be negative and put you off but trying to give you a realistic opinion.

There is a Carter 40 for sale in CBYC. It's a blue water boat and has been around the world and I suggest you go and take a look at it as it is a great example of what can be achieved and what can happen when emotions take over common sense.

Good luck.

 

[steveej]

A healthy set of tools and a knowledge of how to use them and a willingness to learn new skills is also essential to avoid extortionate yard charges which can also bankrupt you.

 

[NotBirdseye]

Unfortunately nope, I'm not thinking of living aboard at least not for extended periods (possibly up to five days at a time if I can get the care cover (hah good luck with that)). Sounds like sailing is a lot like camping! (Walking to showers in the freezing rain in January is a sport XD). Interesting that a 40ft boat is too big to get into a lot of places, I would have imagined that 40ft would more or less be the 'standard' size.

Some initial refit is to be expected of course, (I'll definitely be staying away from teak refit jobs until I know what to replace the teak with!). Erring on the side of caution is great because it means I'll know more or less what I'm letting myself in for. Assuming I can find a half decent one. I don't mind the work as such I do however want to know how much time/money will be required. No point buying a boat at £9,000 if it's going to cost me £30,000 when I could buy a boat at £15,000 that needs £8,000. I'll do some additional research about the taking out of the water, as your advice runs counter to others so I'll try and find out the basis of this

I definitely appreciate that the boat will need to come out of the water for routine maintenance, that's to be expected. I am however looking at annual costs. As indicated prior I haven't been looking too heavily at the maintenance yet, roughly working in big handfuls rather than specifics. I'd like to needle into that detail a bit later when I have more skills/experience/budget.

As for the Carter 40, I can't seem to find a listing for it at all, not on the CBYC or on the major sale sites either :/.

Edit:

Kekekeke.... yes I'm aware of extortionate mechanics. Finding a good mechanic has always been a problem for me, not one of them seems to be able to do a job properly. (I've tried word of mouth, I've tried paying more, paying less and I'm still left with bodge jobs that I could have done myself at equal quality (that's how bad they are)).



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Pretty much a new post

So far my estimations for maintenance (over 10 years) seems to come to £49,000 (or £4,900 per annum) for a 35-40ft boat, not including insurance/berthing. Scheduling in a refit on the first year then every five years after + possible extra equipment. That includes insurance. It seems tight budget but is that more or less the ball park? (Edit: There are some things I've not factored in due to some things I just don't know about ). I think I'm scheduling in about 25% (estimated) of the boat in terms maintenance (no the boat is not going to be a top notch £50,000 yacht), maintenance in the first year appears to be just over half the value of the boat. So I'll be putting in 3x the worth of the boat XD

All in all potentially looking at an annual budget of £8,500. (No wonder ownership rates are dropping!)

 

[steveej]

My first boat was a Hurley 22R purchased for £2k, with £4.5k spent on refit, safety gear, charts etc. Sold for £2.5k. That taught me a lesson.

Current boat purchased in February this year is a 2003 AWB 32ft French boat purchased for £30,500, immaculate down below but lacking in some basic maintenance. Current spend so far on refit, winter maintenance, safety gear, and ancillary equipment (not including tender, outboard, oilies or life Jackets) is £5k and it is still not finished as it needs a re-rig and a new life raft. I suspect it will be closer to £40k by the time it is finished.

This has included dropping the swing keel which was heavily corroded where it sits in the well. Blasting, epoxy, priming, painting (£800) done by the yard and some work on the engine (new elbow, new thermostat, cleaning of the heat exchanger, new exhaust muffler mostly done by me with some assistance from the yard (another £1k), new seacocks (£500), basic safety gear (£350), spare anchor and rode (£300), lifts & chocking plus antifoul and anodes at an expensive marina (£700 though nearly £600 of that was Marina charges), solar panel installation as there is no electric at the new home berth (£100), additional tool purchases sand paper and ancillaries to do the work myself (£200), new domestic batteries 2 x 75amphr (£135), some new running rigging £250), charts binoculars and a 2019 almanac (£180), pots pans plates cutlery utensils kettle etc (£100). This is not a definitive list but shows the main things.

The boat was completely bare but I brought a lot of things across from the previous boat (dinghy, outboard, lifejackets, oilies etc).

In a couple of years time it will also need new sails (£3k basic, £5k better but no where near top of the range) so that needs to be budgeted for after the re-rig.

Nevertheless, I believe my first year will be the worst and things will settle down into more of a standard maintenance regime with most of the budget going on replacement when things wear out or breakdown but only time will tell.

 

[NotBirdseye]

I now understand what chocking is btw.

Thanks for the overview, a number of things I have covered (they go into my Misc maintenance box at the moment XD). There are some things I'll probably put off out of there (additional tool purchases largely and other shiny stuff). Some things are 'nice to have' others 'essential'. However £2,000 a year for misc maintenance should largely about cover that year on year.

The budgeting for sails, I'm hoping will be included in the £4,500 that I have aside for more major items (though I'm looking at reducing that). As I'm not inherently a racer, the more basic sails should be fine, but again with that nice to have.

The first year is definitely the worst (boat cost!), I'm factoring in more or less every fifth year will have a spike of about £5k. (Again would like to reduce :/ but I guess I should budget that and then recoup any savings).

Very much nice to get some experienced feedback has allowed me to improve on my budget significantly. Though I'm finding it difficult to compare different boat yards as they seem to all have different fee structures :/.




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Okay I've weighed up all my options and gone into some significant detail with regards to my budget. The facts generally speak for themselves. I've factored in pretty much the cheapest options of the cheapest options and doing the bare minimum. A relatively (if not optimistically cheap) boat. Annual maintenance fees (roughly), Administrative fees (Mooring/Insurance based on reasonable estimates). At a minimum for a 35-40ft boat, we're looking at a total annual budget requirement of £8,360 (monthly this would be £700~). This of course includes the boat cost over 10 years and does not include the cost of any potential finance. Some of the costs are unavoidable like Sail replacements.

Admittedly as a cruiser rather than a racer, some things would last longer than advertised but likewise some things would break sooner. Unfortunately I'd need to knock off a fair amount to make it feasible (About £2,000). This could potentially be possible if I could guarantee I could get a cheaper mooring through one of the clubs, but I'd also need to reduce the maintenance costs (and that requires identifying other boat servicing facilities than just the marina yards it seems).

More research I guess, but it's probably a dead end from the looks of it so far.

 

[steveej]

In my opinion you need to come down a size. If you take a look around the local marinas and clubs, I would say the vast majority of boat are less than 30ft. The costs are exponential as the size goes up. If you start looking at a more modern boat nearer 30ft which shouldn't need as much refit and has suffered less wear and tear then the numbers change dramatically. It should also still be worth something in 10 years time.

What boats have you been looking at and where are you getting 40ft as being the standard size from?

 

[NotBirdseye]

Coming down too much of a size is unrealistic for me (other requirements on top of personal preference). Depreciation is not something I mind about because I generally don't sell anything.

The 40ft comes from my observations (I generally don't hang around the clubs as no reason to be there), taking the average of the range of 'average' yacht sizes from the RYA and other organizations (which adds up to about 38ish and so on. Also most advice indicates something between 35 and 40ft is generally the most comfortable to sail. So ultimately, it'll depend on the boat itself as to whether I'll consider much smaller. Keel boats don't interest me >.> (by this I basically mean small yacht). If I can't afford to do what I want to do then I'll just have to swallow that.

It's like cars, sure a Ford Fiesta will get me from A to B (by sometime next year) but I wouldn't want to own (another) one I'd sooner purchase a proper car that will do the job comfortably, in relatively good time and cost much less to maintain. The same can be said of Caravans...sure I can get a Freedom Microlight but then I can also get a 5 berth that I don't feel like a sardine and won't blow away at the first sign of a gust of wind.

 

[Yellow Ballad]

Are you going to be sailing with crew? Because that big gust of wind that might blow your caravan away may make a larger boat a bit of a handful on your own, especially if you've not had much experience. I'm not saying you wouldn't be able to handle it on your own but things like mooring in a tight marina, hoisting sails, sorting "issues" on the water are a lot harder the bigger you go.

Best thing I can suggest is visit a few of the clubs and marinas and get talking to a few people. See if you like the club thing is your thing and if it is find one that you like, some people don't like it and prefer to do their own thing in a marina.

 

[NotBirdseye]

Are you going to be sailing with crew? Because that big gust of wind that might blow your caravan away may make a larger boat a bit of a handful on your own, especially if you've not had much experience. I'm not saying you wouldn't be able to handle it on your own but things like mooring in a tight marina, hoisting sails, sorting "issues" on the water are a lot harder the bigger you go.

Best thing I can suggest is visit a few of the clubs and marinas and get talking to a few people. See if you like the club thing is your thing and if it is find one that you like, some people don't like it and prefer to do their own thing in a marina.

Crew no (unlikely, though I will be taking additional lessons on my own boat initially), guests yes. However I won't be buying a boat until I have said experience (as I completely agree with you) and beyond that I'll be keeping my nose relatively clean as I begin to build 'real sailing' experience. I'm in no particular rush here I can take my time. I don't have places to be. That being said, while I'd love to singlehand a 70ft, I'm well aware that's far from feasible (also as pointed out by others; costly) . I'm also well aware I'm currently in no position to singlehand I don't have either the skills or the experience necessary hence the tuition. For example, how singlehanders put the mainsail away I have no idea yet :/.

I've looked at a number of clubs in my area, but unless you're a boat owner and/or have the ability to hop on a boat, there seems to be very little point to them, none of them offer tuition and those that do stick rigorously to the RYA demanding at least one if not three nights out. (Not possible for me). One that'll go unmentioned demands prior experience in Dinghy's (or similar small vessels) before being allowed to go sailing with them...and I'm not interested in a dinghy whatsoever XD. It's something I'll have to look at closer to boat purchase (which the planned start date for that has been pushed back, until I can figure out how to reduce those maintenance costs).

Points well taken and extra caution will be thrown in, planning more lessons before contemplating the plunge. Much appreciated.

 

[Tamar]

This is for sale in Cardiff marina. If I didn't already have a boat I would snap it up

 

[NotBirdseye]

It's currently Sale Pending https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/1977/moody-33-mk-1-3235436/ (Not me)

Pending a survey (+seatrial?) and a review myself I too would have been considering it. (It was on my watch list).

Surprisingly it only knocks of £400 after 10 years (this factors in maintenance, boat cost, berthing). I'm sure there will be some extra savings to be had, but they're not where it counts :|. I hadn't run the budget on this boat previously, my previous assumption was a 36ft (11m) that was about £15,000 (not a real boat, but an estimation), probably why the price difference is not as great has figured.

 

[Tamar]

If the sale falls through it could be a good buy, I know it was rerigged recently.

 

[NotBirdseye]

Potentially, I still have to figure out how to get those maintenance costs down >.<; I've had to revise some maintenance costs up due to new calculations (haul out charges). Though I've reduced the refit and misc budgets to what I think is the tolerance. Unfortunately berthing fees have averaged out higher than I'd like >.>

Maintenance currently stands at 20% of boat value per year, mooring and insurance, 18%.

 

[Tamar]

Potentially, I still have to figure out how to get those maintenance costs down >.<; I've had to revise some maintenance costs up due to new calculations (haul out charges). Though I've reduced the refit and misc budgets to what I think is the tolerance. Unfortunately berthing fees have averaged out higher than I'd like >.>

Maintenance currently stands at 20% of boat value per year, mooring and insurance, 18%.

I don't understand how you came to 20% of the boat value each year in maintenance. That's a lot of maintenance. You don't need to haul out every year or antifoul for that matter. Service the engine yourself, sails should be ok for a few years for you want to do. What are you like with a paintbrush? Insurance is a couple of hundred pounds a year. So all you are left with is mooring fee's. I have never understood this 20% maintenance thing. On a 100k boat that's 20k

 

[solitaire11]

No disrespect to anyone, but breaking things down spreadsheet style aint good.. boats generally have problems no one forsees, basically you just gotta get a boat and enjoy it! If numbers are on your mind it won't work out too well for you.

 

[NotBirdseye]

Erk: As this thread is no longer about Mooring. I'm going to thank everyone for their time and their contributions it has helped me factor in certain amounts and of course the advice around maintenance has come much earlier than anticipated but again a welcome and structural input. Every post has been valuable and has changed something about the process I'm going through. If there's anything else anyone would like to add please let me know.

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The 20% is just what it came to. So it comes on average to £3500~ per annum (including the price of the boat) I would still expect it to be high with a bigger boat due to the complexity mind you. There are two schools of thought with anti-foul, in camp 1: who cares, in camp 2: you're ruining your boat if you don't do it every year. I plan to haul out as little as I can, but once a year seems to the limit (depending on how much you're using the boat), but then I'd also use that time to carry out other tasks should they be necessary. Sails should last me a bit longer (according to some sites up to 15 years for good quality sails) but I'm also factoring in things like rips and minor repairs. I'll point to post #21 for more details likewise there's some stuff that I'd rather not do myself if I can at all help it and I'd sooner pay someone else to do if I can.

The mooring fees are again over £2,000 per annum (some cheaper, most more expensive and mud berthing seems to divide yachties more than brexit).

Solitaire11, I complete get where you're coming from. Unfortunately I don't want to spend £15,000 on a boat (closer to £22,000 in the first year) only for two years later to realize I can't sustain the outlay.

Still, it sounds like the extra budget for maintenance might be beefier than needed and if so that means I can reinvest either into the boat or into something else that makes life fun (like high interest savings accounts... I never claimed to be exciting).

If anyone thinks they can do yachting cheaper, I'd be interested to know how they work it out. It seems to me most people actually put more in than they realize they're doing.

 

[mattonthesea]

my tuppence: I have lived solo, quite comfortably on a 32 ft, old boat for a year. It's not as comfortable as an AWB for living but much more so for sailing (out in a gale is no problem).

For my present boat I looked at 35-36ft but the spreadsheet (for my needs) pointed out that costs nearly doubled for that extra length. So I'm back to a 32ft one. I have head clerance in all but the forepeak.

In this one I have been to spain for three months, scotland for three months and milford have for two weeks! Next year we are going to the baltic for 4 months and may overwinter her there to come back the next year. SWMBO likes the cruising life but is not a sailor so I am still basically a solo sailor. I can do just about everything on the boat by myself with ease - not so easy on a 40ft-er.

She's in bristol harbour so only 15 mins walk, away for easy maintenance/getting her right for me. That means I only go sailng for 3 months at a time because the bristol channel takes a lot of concentration and I get bored of the same places ( aweekend to cardiff and back).

So far I've calculated that she's cost about £800 per week of sailing (not including when I sell her) and that will come down to less than £500 after the next two seasons. If I kept her in a marina that would be much higher.

I'm not saying do what I do - we all have differing needs/wants from boats. If you want to sail reasonably cheaply and get experience then you could do what my brother did. From his YM theory course he got together with other students and they chartered boats out of progressively more challenging places. They split the costs and rotated the roles and evaluated their performances. Learnt a lot and had fun while avoiding the hassle of ownership. They were liked by the charter companies because they kept coming back back and they also provided a defects list each time. Got discounts and perks too.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Luminescent: I think that managing a 40ft boat on your own in Locks, or Swinging moorings would be a nightmare and absolutely impossible on Trot Moorings except in the calmest of weathers. Fine for going round world when you only moor a few times but that is hardly the Bristol Channel. There is a good reason why 35ft is normal maximum in these waters and I wouldn't even want anything that big as it would simply stop me getting to many of the fine creeks harbours around these coasts.

Furthermore if you have never owned a boat before I will hazard that the first you buy will not prove to be the right fit so sellability is a consideration, and you can expect to lose half of what you paid for it, so mortgaging/borrowing up to the hilt is not advisable.

My costs for a 31ft are £200pa mooring plus about £1800 a year maintenance, insurance and liftout, and that include new sails engine and rigging in the last 10 years, but as an engineer I do most other routine work as relief from computerised bureaucratised day to day job

 

[Allan]

Starting with a 40 foot boat is an interesting concept! I started with 22, progressed to 33 and now sail a 36 foot boat, two handed. We are both yacht masters and have sailed to the Baltic and twice across the Atlantic, since 2016. What mistaken rational makes 40 feet necessary? I thought my heavy 33 foot Westerly was good for the Bristol channel and trips to France and Ireland.
Allan

 

[NotBirdseye]

Luminescent: I think that managing a 40ft boat on your own in Locks, or Swinging moorings would be a nightmare and absolutely impossible on Trot Moorings except in the calmest of weathers. Fine for going round world when you only moor a few times but that is hardly the Bristol Channel. There is a good reason why 35ft is normal maximum in these waters and I wouldn't even want anything that big as it would simply stop me getting to many of the fine creeks harbours around these coasts.

Furthermore if you have never owned a boat before I will hazard that the first you buy will not prove to be the right fit so sellability is a consideration, and you can expect to lose half of what you paid for it, so mortgaging/borrowing up to the hilt is not advisable.

My costs for a 31ft are £200pa mooring plus about £1800 a year maintenance, insurance and liftout, and that include new sails engine and rigging in the last 10 years, but as an engineer I do most other routine work as relief from computerised bureaucratised day to day job

First up 40ft is effectively thrown out, simply not the budget! However I don't mind something slightly larger than 35ft if it happens to be within my price range. Trial by fire, it's the only way to learn (exaggeration much!). Generally the boats that I'm looking at are within the 30-35ft range now. I really wouldn't want to go smaller... however... that is a big however, that may all change as sailing experience and familiarity with boats grows.

Re finance, I appreciate the advice and normally I'd agree, but my circumstances are a bit different to most who choose to buy on credit. It works out cheaper for me to do so.

Many thanks for the costs. I'm hoping to keep my maintenance costs lower but I guess it ultimately depends, I can likely stretch to about £2,500 a year maintenance costs if necessary (I'll be thinking long and hard about 'need' and 'want'). There's a lot of learning to be done! If the engine goes, first thing I'm buying is a sculling oar... (now, sculling a 40ft'r...XD).

Starting with a 40 foot boat is an interesting concept! I started with 22, progressed to 33 and now sail a 36 foot boat, two handed. We are both yacht masters and have sailed to the Baltic and twice across the Atlantic, since 2016. What mistaken rational makes 40 feet necessary? I thought my heavy 33 foot Westerly was good for the Bristol channel and trips to France and Ireland.
Allan

*cough* Newb *cough*. There are a couple of things for me that make a 22 impractical but that may obviously change (see above). The rational comes largely from being a newb (check post count, you can see me a mile off!) and advice about what would be roughly needed for what I have in the back of my mind. I do appreciate the advice as well and the information about the 33 foot Westerly. Albeit finding out how heavy a boat is.....well, tricky as not listed on most adverts. I'm generally of the theory, that the larger the better, I'm not fussed about speed (so we can wipe out the racers in general), but I do want steady and well, depends on which sailor you listen to as to which boat is right. Some like their 22ft'rs, others declare them unfit to sail anything but the village pond!

Cheers both for your guidance, highly valued. Thankfully it seems I've already adapted to a lot of the raised points based on previous posters.

... speaking of which...

In short, there are three options for me I see, Dale Yacht Club (if they'll have me), Cardiff Yacht Club (if they'll have me) or Swansea. These are roughly the best value for what they offer. Though I'll keep any thoughts in mind. (I don't need frills, so I can afford to disregard them).