Modern methods and old tradition

[Guest]

Having waded through odd postings and chucked in my tuppence worth ...... the thought came ......

Have we developed into a lazy lot, with all the gadgets now available and the traditional arts being left aside. Occasionally bringing them out and dusting them off ??

The Compass post really brought it home to me ...... have I really been blind to evolution, am I missing something ?

Some claim all sorts of improvements in various activities we have conducted for centuries, others waddle along oblivious to improved gear .........

I was a traditionalist jib hanks and wet arse boater ----- then fitted furling gear ...... well I can honestly say that on my UK boat - I would not do without it .....

PC nav ----- I wish I'd found this earlier !!! even for my solent / tallin bay loacl stuff !!

What is the situation now ? Are we better yotties or are we just safer because of gagdetry ?? What improvements have these gadgets made to our sport ...... ? Does it allow less experienced to get into trouble ??

I don't like keep having to plot / calculate or commit DR / EP's etc. - my boating normally doesn't require that sort of level, but I enjoy the odd stint to keep the old brain functioning !!!!

What are the panels views ????


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I came - cos they said was FREE Guinness !
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[duncan]

diffent people take satisfaction from different elements of activities - some for example like to make model planes - others make them to fly them.
It's hard to get much satisfaction from electronic navigation - especialy on a planning power craft because you can't do much more than plan to miss overfalls that are time/tide dependant.
On the other hand you can take satisfaction from a traditional navigation exercise sitting at home!!!!

Live and let live - oh and don't insist that others have to share your personal turn-ons

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[RupertW]

A scenario from this summer: I was crewing with this great couple who were fairly new to sailing but had a big boat with all the trimmings, including a whacking great chartplotter screen in front of the wheel with combined chart-plotter, both fairly new to me. I was relieved to see they also had paper charts.

At L'Aberwrach they used the chart plotter to navigate the boat amongst the rocky passages regardless of whether they were between the channel bouys and the rocks or not. I found it unnerving, and wondered about how a chart error might combine with accurate GPS and make us hit something. We didn't and got some lovely close up views which I otherwise wouldn't have seen. Round 1 to the chartplotter.

A day or two later I came on deck at dawn to find both of them rather concerned because the battery bank was running down and the chartplotter was failing. I looked around and could see Belle Ilse (with lighthouse) close by to my right, the Quiberon peninsula to my left, and a line of yellow/black bouy combinations to lead us to our target Teignouse passage. I couldn't have been less alarmed. However my companions would have been seriously worried about attempting a new harbour without the chartplotter or GPS. Round 2 to using "traditional" eyesight.

I think I like both methods and I felt passage making, especially in foggy waters, was transformed when GPSs came along. However in places like the Caribbean I usually leave my GPS at home and enjoy the traditional way with hardly any time at the chart-table between the time we set set sail and the time we approach the next anchorage.

Paraffin nav lights, though - I do miss them. No need to put on the engine when the electric nav lights go dim at 4.00am, and the light is so much bigger (not brighter) than electric lights that ships seem to really take notice.





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[Chris_Robb]

Rupert - I think you have clearly illustrated the danger of reliance on a chart plotter. Low batteries - the owners were getting worried - whats the problem??? to them it is very real as they have not got any natural skills - not a question of having lost them - they never had them!

Rather you than me entering L'abervrache - leaving some of the buoys on the wrong side - sounds like complete ignorance of navigation and a play station mentality. I would rather not go on that boat unless I was responsible for navigation!

This is a statistic waiting to happen - how does it effect me? Insurance rates go up, legislation comes in, our freedom is restrained - all because some people are too lazy or ignorant to learn the basic skills. and I don't mean relying on EP and DR - just proper use of GPS plotting - laying of courses etc.

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[Guest]

Far be it for me !!

I certainly don't like others insisting on me .... so I in turn don't insist on others ......

My question is based on the posts that have come up recently .... OK repeats of others taht have been in the past - but this drives home even more the question ......

I love traditional, but appreciate modern. I use modern, but dabble with traditional. Its like my love of driving ..... I have a high performance AWD machine cause I live in Baltics .... but enjoy taking my 3 ltr rear wheel drive machine out for tail slides ..... safer? AWD new, traditional RWD old.

NO - don't get me wrong - I'm asking not insulting !!!



<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I came - cos they said was FREE Guinness !
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[mickshep]

Still a traditionalist at heart, hank on jibs and chartwork add to the fun for me. G.P.S brill for checking the pencil and rule method (and deviation, chuckle) and I feel a lot happier knowing its there when the vis' closes in. I did pick up a cracking 2nd hand portable chart table with a sort of parallelogram arrangement attached to a compass rose and rule that allows you to 'dial' in the variation/deviation so that you can convert between mag and true at a single glance. The chart sits under a sheet of clear plastic so can be written on with chinograph. simple but usefull and one less draw on the batteries. Cheers, Mick

<hr width=100% size=1>"Naaa mate, she's made of tin"

 

[Aja]

Chris

I think you have hit the nail on the head with 'play station' mentality. Press F1 to play again is OK on PlayStation - it doesn't work if you hit something.

I do agree that the electric bits and pieces developed in the last 30 or so years have been a great boon to us saily chaps. It has allowed me to go further, safer.

In addition it does not affect other parts of the 'enjoyment' of it all - the boathandling etc.

Donald

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[RupertW]

I think it's not a case of not having the traditional skills - as the skipper had done some of the RYA courses - it's a question of not trusting traditional skills, or even traditional caution. If you started out with a choice between a pencil and a chartplotter, what would you think?

The L'Aberwrach thing tested my nerve a bit. I went all the way up through my different levels of "advising" this skipper to do something different, to no avail - but he was proved correct in this case. The chart-plotter said that the bouy was 15 yards to our right, and the rocks it marked were 20 yards to our left, and they were - very visibly. It was a learning point for me, made on a boat that wasn't my own, after giving the best advice I could, and working out the best way to swim if we hit.

So what have I learnt from this extreme use of modern methods? That one particular channel and buoy is very precisely charted to match a GPS position, so presumably quite a few others are too. That you can do a route that only a grizzled local would use, in a strange harbour using modern equipment.

That I'd still only use marked channels in my own boat, but for the first time I wonder whether I'm being over-cautious out of habit and fancy trying some trickier channels than I currently do.






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[chas]

Swings and roundabouts. There used to be a great feeling of achievement making a landfall or navigating a channel in low vis - but only afterwards when you were secure at anchor or alongside. During the passage the doubt and concern about plotting CMG, SOG, tidal streams and the rest were extreme. I am not sure if I prefer the greater certainty during the passage but the relative lack of any feeling of achievement at the end!

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[Chris_Robb]

Rather you than me!
The skipper you say had learnt the theory - but had he learnt the practice. Certainly from my experience from the many initial cock-ups I made, the theory is very different - and by god you learn from your mistakes (nothing disasterous!). I presume you were navigating the North west going channel. But why go the wrong side of the marker? Its such an unecessary risk, ok once you know a channel well then you should start cutting corners. One the other hand there is nothing worse than sailing with someone who treats his yacht like the Queen Mary!

These things are so easy to use people just do not force themselves to do it in a slighlty more traditional way - no doubt many good intentions - next week end i'll have a go etc.....



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[Evadne]

As a self-confessed traditionalist I wouldn't want to criticise someone's different approach to achieving the same ends. That end is the safe navigation of the vessel. Pilotage is the art of knowing where you are and a correct digital plot is as good as a correct analogue one (pencil and paper).

Where I'd draw the line is letting the electronics get you into a position you couldn't get out of on your own. If the GPS or plotter had thrown a wobbly in the middle of your rock-hopping exercise, things would have turned out different. The analogue equivalent (and often used by examiners) is the sudden descent of fog. This requires you to go from eyeball to "proper" navigation, which we should all be able to do. Presuming the electronics to be fallible is as seamanlike as making provision for suddenly deteriorating visibility, IMHO.

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[RupertW]

I completely agree about relying on just one piece of information. That's why I was so worried about the approaching rocks when the channel was so nearby.

Once it was all over, though, it got me thinking about whether modern electronics might actually help me to be more adventurous at close quarters in the future. In other words, in a unmarked rocky channel where a good paper chart, an echo sounder, and hand-bearing compass would probably work, then a chart-plotter would add a great back-up and might inspire me to give the channel a go, and therefore improve my traditional pilotage skills as well.

An example would be the short-cut channel between Quiberon peninsula and the normal Teignouse channel. There are probably loads of "local knowledge only" channels which would save a little time, build up skills, and, not unimportantly, raise the adrenelin levels a bit.



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[l'escargot]

Hands up...

who still uses a slide rule in favour of a calculator or would use a slide rule in preference to a calculator?

Why then this belief that we should use antiquated methods for sailing?

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[Peppermint]

Re: Nice to have the choice

I still rate compass, paper charts, echosounder, log, transits and bearings above most things when I'm navigating but the GPS is nice. I still use but a 10th of it's potential as I hardly ever put in a waypoint but the instant fix and the COG SOG features are a comfort.

I don't miss trailing logs though or RDF sets.

I sail with sailors of all types and a difference I've noticed is that the pre GPS/Decca sailor tends to only be obsessed with his absolute position when it really matters. They are also more likely to trust what they see rather than what the box tells them and might give a hazard a bit more searoom that the techno junky. I find the old school slightly more relaxed during general cruising.

When the viz goes my instinct leans towards the echosounder, log and compass not the GPS/Plotter. For others it's got to be Radar & plotter. It's a broad church sailing.

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[billmacfarlane]

Yep, you could get a great feeling of achievement making a landfall in bad vis, but think of all the trips when it went slightly wrong and you wondered where the Hell you were. I've been out a few times in pre Decca days when I'd have killed for an accurate position. DR was never that accurate anyway, and on my first trip with a Decca, I went to Fecamp on crap vis and the feeling of satisfaction I got was in knowing exactly where I was - well as accurate as a Decca could be. Any of you old salts out there can still practise the old nav ways if you want - then switch on the GPS to conform your EP or not as the case may be.

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[Guest]

Years ago ....

During a long nights bridge watch - I created a Compass corrector. It was made from two compass rose cut from a cancelled chart, both stuck on thick card and then pinned together at centre with a large card under with a vertical line drawn longer than the rose on top - the rose free to rotate one on top of other. On the large base card was the instructions written for any user to easily turn the two cards to course desired .... the top one then turned to correct for dev'n and var'n ...... the final reading being the Compass course to steer.

I wrote of to a company just vague idea of the contraption ...... no answer. I still have it in a draw somewhere and it still works fine..... after all these years !!

But I noticed a few years back - a design hit the market that had a good resemblance to it !!!! Oh well you win some you lose some !!


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I came - cos they said was FREE Guinness !
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[AndrewB]

Strange dream ...

Had a strange dream (really!) about being in a bar in the middle of an intense circle of debate between navigators of different ages...

A harrassed looking man dressed like George Washington but with a British accent says: "All you need is my clock, that is the key to knowing where you are, even the Board had to accept that!”

He’s being followed by an guy in a long periwig protesting “What good is your clock without my sextant, with my sextant a boat can go anywhere without hitting anything!"

An old Arabic guy gesticulating yells: Sextant?! Who needs a sextant... you have an astrolabe, you have a loadstone, you go east, you go west, you hit land, you turn!".

An ancient Roman jumps in: "Astrolabe!? What will you do when your toy breaks or the one who knows how it's used falls in battle? You damn kids today... all I ever use is a list of directions, as accurate as any in the empire. Travel when you can see the landmarks, and respect the night"

A Polynesian growls: "You speak of respect... you must have true respect for your ancestors and not scribble down their words to remember them. You must share stories of the currents and the birds seen by your father's father when they sailed the same way."

But the loudest in the crowd looks just like the guy I saw at last month’s boat show. He's standing on a table holding a yellow GPS announcing "One hundred quid!"

<font size=1>(Apologies to Geres of CWBB).</font size=1>

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[Guest]

But what does it do ?

To the newcomer to boating ..... he's influenced by all and sundry to buy this, fit this, invest in that ...... emptying pockets and may go away convinced that some magical genie resides inside all this gear that is going to make hima marvelous sailor ? Maybe ??

OK - so maybe I'm exageratting ..... but I know of a guy who bought a nice Moody, invited all his pals with kids etc. and proceeded out to sea ...... he didn't check weather, literally had only got the boat a few days previous straight of the stocks, hadn't taken time out to get to know his boat ..... it ended with all refusing ever to set foot on a boat again after disasters struck .... went aground, sails stuck half up/down, engine not starting - it was literally the gods teaching the guy a lesson.

Anyway - back to my post ...... I believe that both worlds can co-exist - as each has its place and merit. The person that ignores one for the other is missing an oportunity to broaden his boating .....

Yes we can all joke about Astrolabes, Sextants etc. etc. - but the fact is the world evolves - but some things don't actually improve - they just get easier !!!



<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I came - cos they said was FREE Guinness !
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[Mirelle]

The fastest, most comfortable, way to windward

is an Airbus A340.

Sailing is an absurd way to get from A to B. Once you accept that, you may as well do as you please.

I have an old fashioned boat with old fashioned gadgets. She entered service in the same year as the DC3. Aircraft have developed faster than sailing boats, so the new boats don't have ten times the range, four times the speed and many times the comfort of the 1937 model.

Navigationally, I'm happy to use the GPS, echosounder, paddlewheel log
and so on. So far as sailing the boat is concerned, the rig and fittings that she started with are mostly still there and still in use. Below decks, I have no problems with pumped cold water, a Taylor's stove and a kettle.

My approach is old fashioned in that I will delay buying a gadget until I feel there is a consensus as to which is the best one, be it an Avon liferaft or a Garmin GPS, and I will then expect many years of use out of it. I'm still using the Sestrel Radiant hand bearer that I saved up for and bought in 1973, along with my father's Walker Excelsior IV trailing log and a steering compass made 66 years ago by a small firm in Lowestoft. They all work perfectly well.

I enjoy using things like a trailing log (it is much more accurate than the paddle wheel one!) and a paraffin riding light. It's part of the fun.

The A340 may get you there faster, but its less fun than doing it under sail. I think if we throw too much of the old methods away we are left with a boring experience.


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[l'escargot]

Re: Strange dream continued...

and each in turn said what is a quid and what is a GPS.

When you told them, they all sold their various antiques for quids and rushed up to the loudly shouting man and each bought a yellow GPS amazed at the accuracy that they could only dream of.

All were men of vision trying to improve their situation and the art of navigation and here they were given (for quids) the best tool yet. They left at closing time wondering what more new technology would come in the future that would make the GPS seem as primitive as their beloved antiques, but each recognising the important contribution that they had made to the developement of this technology.

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