Modern cats. Any better nowadays?

[Oscarpop]

We've arrived at the end of our cruising season and swmbo has had her head turned by a cat.
I've always had monohulls because I understand them, and their performance.
But the space! Oh the humanity !
However a little research in the 40-50ft cat department and it seems as if they now offer decent performance.

Strangely enough though if you look at fountains pajot and similar builds, Huey don't mention sailing performance anywhere.

So a couple of questions.

1. Aside from the gunboat and uber expensive cats, what else is in the performance cat market we should look at?

2. Is the performance any better?

3. What realistic wind angles will these things sail at?

We are looking for something to continue bluewater cruising so it needs to fulfill all hose criteria.

Cheers

 

[paddywackcocker]

TCM, he should give you some pointers.
his got a quite a few miles under his hulls.

 

[RichardS]

I can try a few answers:

Firstly we chartered monohulls in the Med, Carib and Indian for 20 years before we bought the cat. All of these were typical heavy Beneteau cruisers etc and I can't say that I noticed any particular difference in performance. My cruising 40 foot cat is probably similar to the 45 foot monos I chartered but I didn't buy the cat for performance so it's not an issue. Of course, there's no comparison in terms of space, comfort or manouverability.

On my ST60 display I have to keep the apparent wind above 30 degrees or forward motion tends to grind to a halt unless there's a hoolie blowing but she doesn't really come alive until the wind is above 45 degrees apparent. Assuming that there is a reasonable breeze blowing we tend to cruise along at 7 or 8 knots (only rarely touching double figures) but you often need to sail off the wind a bit to maintain that speed.

Of course, SWMBO loves the cat as she didn't really like heeling. I used to find the heeling a bit more exciting than sailing level but all the other advantages outweigh that.

Richard

 

[TQA]

This by observation only. The only cats I have sailed on were the big Spronks and you can water ski behind those.

Sub 40 ft cruising cats rarely seem to have good sailing performance, certainly they are very poor going to windward. Mostly can be seen running the leeward engine when beating up to St Lucia. They are also prone to hobby horsing quite violently in some sea conditions. Mind you they still outperform any mon of comparable length once anchored.

44ft + and they go better.

.It is very noticeable that the upmarket charter companies are moving away from monos and most of their fleet is now cats, extremely ugly cats from the outside but loved by the punters.

 

[geem]

My view is that modern cat performance has got worse not better. These days MOST cats are built for charter market. In Caribbean most cats motor to windward. The Lagoons are great floating houses but terrible sailing boats. The Lagoon 52 weighs 26 ton! Cats get their performance from being light not heavy! Look at new Outremers if you want performance. The 51 is 9 ton. We went from a cat to mono so seen both sides.

 

[vyv_cox]

We are currently ashore, launch next monday, in the yard next to a massive cat, a something 51. In an idle moment I reckoned that its total footprint is pretty similar to the area of our house! Not the sort of sailing I enjoy.

 

[Ric]

Outremer have a good reputation for prioritising performance and sea-worthiness, but the waiting list is four years for a new one...

 

[RupertW]

My view is that modern cat performance has got worse not better. These days MOST cats are built for charter market. In Caribbean most cats motor to windward. The Lagoons are great floating houses but terrible sailing boats. The Lagoon 52 weighs 26 ton! Cats get their performance from being light not heavy! Look at new Outremers if you want performance. The 51 is 9 ton. We went from a cat to mono so seen both sides.

Lagoons are heavier than they used to be but I've found they sail ok - much much better than the South African ones. In a Lagoon 380 atlantic crossing we got a top speed briefly of 18 knots and 8-10 knots normally on a reach and about 6 knots at 45 degrees to true wind. Lagoon 410 was very similar but never got more than 15 knots. If wind below 10 knots then 3-4 knots maximum speed.

 

[Trident]

I have a 40 year old cat - 35 feet that sails at 6-8 knots and will move forward with 45 degrees of wind.

I've sailed with the new Lagoon 40s which was on average doing around 7-9 knots, up to 11 or 12 in really good beam reach blow but has twice the space we do and is frankly amazing for the price. The new this year 42S has been clocked at 16 knots but was probably empty of everything to do that.

Real performance comes from Catana or Outremer and you pay for it but how fast is fast ? I would be happy to average 10 knots and there are a lot that can do that these days whilst giving you 22 acres of space, 3 showers, 9 berths, two fridges and a hair salon below for SWMBO

 

[boatmike]

Depends on what you call modern and what you can afford. You need to look at boats above 35ft OAL because below this you will get a "hobbyhorse" motion and the bridgedeck clearance will be insufficient to stop slamming. Also cats of 42ft upwards are much more likely to carry a cruising family payload. Overload a little cat and it will be dead in the water. Look at Robert Underwood's site "Rumulti" Robert is the ex CEO of Prouts and Broadblue but sells many different boats. What he doesn't know about cats ain't worth knowing and he is a very straight guy. Try contacting him direct. In terms of performance you will find most cruising cats go to windward pretty well and off the wind they are much faster. In fact it is often the case that you can beat an equivalent average cruiser monohull upwind by going 4 or 5% degrees less tight to the wind but sailing a good deal faster.

 

[geem]

Depends on what you call modern and what you can afford. You need to look at boats above 35ft OAL because below this you will get a "hobbyhorse" motion and the bridgedeck clearance will be insufficient to stop slamming. Also cats of 42ft upwards are much more likely to carry a cruising family payload. Overload a little cat and it will be dead in the water. Look at Robert Underwood's site "Rumulti" Robert is the ex CEO of Prouts and Broadblue but sells many different boats. What he doesn't know about cats ain't worth knowing and he is a very straight guy. Try contacting him direct. In terms of performance you will find most cruising cats go to windward pretty well and off the wind they are much faster. In fact it is often the case that you can beat an equivalent average cruiser monohull upwind by going 4 or 5% degrees less tight to the wind but sailing a good deal faster.

We have sailed the last couple of seasons in the Caribbean and have yet to meet the illusive cat that out performs a reasonable monohull to windward. I am talking about tacking here not wind forward of the beam. Off the wind a cat will blow away the average cruising boat easily. On the wind in decent size waves the average cat gets knocked off course by the seas having little grip and huge windage. Our old Trintella 44 ketch easily out performs Lagoons in there conditions. Cats resort to engine power when the conditions are like this or they come in to the anchorage a long time after us.
I like the smaller Lagoon 380 but the larger ones for me, are floating houses ( and very nice ones). If you sail down wind and are happy to motor up wind then they could be the boat for you.
The Caribbean isn't like the Med. You get good wind and proper seas between the islands. You get to see how different boats cope when they are loaded as liveaboards and are expected to perform. Sometimes it can be quite surprising.

 

[pragmatist]

The Caribbean isn't like the Med. You get good wind and proper seas between the islands. You get to see how different boats cope when they are loaded as liveaboards and are expected to perform. Sometimes it can be quite surprising.

... well go on ... tell us what you've seen/met and what is surprising ? That's just too tantalising !

 

[geem]

I have a 40 year old cat - 35 feet that sails at 6-8 knots and will move forward with 45 degrees of wind.

I've sailed with the new Lagoon 40s which was on average doing around 7-9 knots, up to 11 or 12 in really good beam reach blow but has twice the space we do and is frankly amazing for the price. The new this year 42S has been clocked at 16 knots but was probably empty of everything to do that.

Real performance comes from Catana or Outremer and you pay for it but how fast is fast ? I would be happy to average 10 knots and there are a lot that can do that these days whilst giving you 22 acres of space, 3 showers, 9 berths, two fridges and a hair salon below for SWMBO

In my mind you don't buy a modern cat for speed unless it is something like an Outremmer. It's all about comfort. Quoting boat speeds is wrong. Cats can do bursts of speed when they catch a wave or a gust but soon drop back to normal speed. On average the cat boat speeds are not that impressive unless you are downwind and prepared to hang on to a lot of canvas. That is something that get tiring and is not sensible if you are on a long passage of a few days or crossing an ocean.
About 2 knots covers most boats average boat speed for yachts in the 35-50 ft range regardless of whether it's a cruising cat or cruising monohull.
The best none tide/current assisted sail we ever did in our 37 ft cat over 50nm was an average of 9knots and that was exceptional. The cat was lightened, had a tall mast and trick sails. Wind was on the beam at F6 and seas were unusually flat. We hung on to full sail. The same boat crossed the Atlantic at an average of 5kts.
You might get your 10kt average on a windy day sail but be realistic, those trips are one off and unless you are deep downwind. That's not realistic of every day performance in bumpy seas and strong winds. The best boat speed we ever achieved in our cat was 17.5kts off the Costs del Morte in a F8. It doesn't mean we sail like that but the boat did it.
Our 44ft monohull typically averages 7-7.5 knots between the island here in the Caribbean with wind just forward of the beam. But we are loaded with 800 litres of water, 450 litres of fuel, huge stores, spares for everything, bikes, rib, kayaks, paddleboard and spare sails. We weigh 19 tons loaded. We swapped from a cat to a mono to be able to do this safely and retain the ability to sail to windward. One crossing of the Atlantic in a cat with wind on the nose from Antigua to Azores was enough to convince us to return to monohull sailing. We have a lot more space on our 44ft mono than we had on our 37ft cat. If you moveup to a modern cat then you would have twice as much space as us for the same 44ft length.

 

[RichardS]

Lagoons are heavier than they used to be but I've found they sail ok - much much better than the South African ones.

I disagree, of course. There nothing to choose between equivalent Lagoons and Leopard in performance terms unless one is more heavily loaded or has folding props or something similar.

There might be other reasons to do with layout or whatever which dictate which one you prefer ..... but performance can be discounted.

Richard

 

[boatmike]

Oh well I suppose it was inevitable that I would draw this response from somebody. I didn't say ANY cat would outperform ANY monohull to windward. Firstly we were talking about modern catamarans and frankly while there are a lot of lagoons about I would not include one of these in this category and acknowledge that they are not in fact very good to windward compared with others. What I actually said (talking about "modern" cats as we were) is that most go to windward "pretty well" and that if sailed properly can often beat the "average" cruiser upwind. This however does require different techniques. If (as unfortunately most try to do) you take on a monohull in a pointing match you will loose in most cases as they don't point as high and as tacking a cat is sometimes hard work, especially in light airs, compared to a monohull many sailors of boats like the Lagoon will inevitably start the "iron spinnaker"
The message I was trying to transmit to the OP was. " Yes modern cats are indeed better especially over about 45 ft"
There are advantages and disadvantages of both monohulls and catamarans. Not all monohulls are the same so why oh why do so many people seem to think all catamarans are??

 

[shan]

There is a Lagoon 380 in Swansea Marina. Very nice looking boat and I have to say, it certainly gets a good burst of speed on, from what I have seen. Bearing in mind, it has a self tacking jib, I very much doubt tacking is difficult. It also appears to manoeuvre extremely well in tight spaces.

 

[Oscarpop]

Oh well I suppose it was inevitable that I would draw this response from somebody. I didn't say ANY cat would outperform ANY monohull to windward. Firstly we were talking about modern catamarans and frankly while there are a lot of lagoons about I would not include one of these in this category and acknowledge that they are not in fact very good to windward compared with others. What I actually said (talking about "modern" cats as we were) is that most go to windward "pretty well" and that if sailed properly can often beat the "average" cruiser upwind. This however does require different techniques. If (as unfortunately most try to do) you take on a monohull in a pointing match you will loose in most cases as they don't point as high and as tacking a cat is sometimes hard work, especially in light airs, compared to a monohull many sailors of boats like the Lagoon will inevitably start the "iron spinnaker"
The message I was trying to transmit to the OP was. " Yes modern cats are indeed better especially over about 45 ft"
There are advantages and disadvantages of both monohulls and catamarans. Not all monohulls are the same so why oh why do so many people seem to think all catamarans are??

Thanks . That was the sort of answer I was looking for.

I guess it's inevitable that as you move from sailing at weekends and holidays to full term liveaboards, and similarly move from Northern Europe to warmer climes , your wants and needs change.

This is our position now. We want more space, we don't intend to return to Europe for a few years at least and so a cat suits most.
If I was back to sailing weekends and holidays my choice would be very different .

 

[TonyMS]

A brief scan of what's for sale offers a Dazcat 12m, 2003, for about 70 grand. Will be fast enough to scare you, with pretty good accommodation as well.

 

[thinwater]

This morning I tacked to follow an FP Hellia. New 44 compared to my 19 year old 32. I had nearly 2 knots on him up wind, while pointing much higher. I watched them scurry about, trimming, and then they fell off a little to gain speed. That helped, since they obviously couldn't point for beans, but I still passed it easily. And that is giving up 19 years and 12 feet of water line.

There are some performance machines out there, but the manufactures know people will pay more for comfort and sailing ability.

I'm sure it is more comfortable. Depends on what you want. The point is that they are better, but the focus isn't always speed. From what I gather, monos aren't all built for speed either. And that isn't wrong.