MOB - why not launch life-raft?

[KellysEye]

The whole point of MoB is to stop it. Fit jackstays on each side of the deck, use a harness and clip on with one short and one long tether. Always use the short tether when going on deck as it stops you going over the guardrails. Go forward on your hand and knees to reef at the mast then put the long tether around the mast to stop you falling back. We always clipped on in bad weather and at night.

To give an example of not finding a Mob we were sailing up the Portuguese coast up current in 25 knot winds and swells, we were taking heavy water over the boat and it washed the inflatable danbouy off the aft quarter. It disappeared behind the waves and swell in four minutes. If I had gone overboard there was no chance of Jane turning the boat around and finding me. Bear in mind an inflatable danbouy is 2 metres high.

 

[Polly's Kettle]

I have to say that it seems a poor idea to me, for several reasons:
1) If you are sailing offshore, you should absolutely have a danbuoy of some sort to identify where they are, which will be capable of deploying quicker than a liferaft so I'm assuming the idea isn't to help you find the MOB
2) Unless you are standing right there, AND your raft is capable of being deployed within seconds, then you are going to be giving them a long swim. Throwing the raft is almost telling them - certainly tempting them - to make that swim, which is the most likely thing to kill them. See the MCA's video on cold shock:
https://youtu.be/0Rp0mQTZF2o
The only thing you should be doing when you hit the water is lying back and relaxing for 1-2 minutes until the cold shock passes. Swimming for a raft may give you a heart attack. I remember on a raceboat the mantra was that if the bowman goes over, do your best to hit him on the head with the necessaries as he goes past. Obviously there is poetic licence there, but the point is, don't give him a distance to swim, and if you can't avoid it, consider whether you are helping or harming by throwing the kit too late. A danbuoy should go whenenver you can, but the crew need to know not to swim for it - it's a general location marker, not something to hang onto.

If they don't have a lifejacket, that might be a different story, but hopefully you have a lifering that could go overboard quicker than a raft.

I agree that a raft might be useful once you have got back to the MOB, although it does suggest a lack of the right kit to winch someone back aboard- a handybilly, or main halyard for example. If they are too debilitated to clip it to their harness, then they won't be able to climb into a raft either.

 

[tcm]

Erm, well, it’s hard to get into a liferaft, and if you launch the thing - then you haven’t got a liferaft. Perhaps throw the medical kit overboard as well? I’m joking.

If you have ever actually had an MoB you’ll know that the most memorable aspect is the complete surprise. And as soon as realise the true situation, the urgency is to get the boat to them as fast as possible, so engine on and get back there.

Dropping any of the emergency equipment at early stages takes eyes off the sea - where they were, where they are now. The RN have crew shouting and pointing all the time. “Mob bears 7oclock 400 yards!” and that’s a good system. It is nothing at all like the dayskipper-style calmly adjusting sails and wafting back to pick up a fender.

There’s ways to more realistically re-enact an MoB. Dropping the LR doesn’t help much if at all in solving the real-life issues. It more likely shows that you haven’t tried to get into a liferaft, nor ever had an MoB...

 

[[163233]]

The RN have crew shouting and pointing all the time. “Mob bears 7oclock 400 yards!” and that’s a good system. It is nothing at all like the dayskipper-style calmly adjusting sails and wafting back to pick up a fender.

The RYA courses I've been on have taught precisely that.
However, for most of us I suspect there won't be anyone else on board to do the pointing once one person has gone over.

 

[RupertW]

Erm, well, it’s hard to get into a liferaft, and if you launch the thing - then you haven’t got a liferaft. Perhaps throw the medical kit overboard as well? I’m joking.

If you have ever actually had an MoB you’ll know that the most memorable aspect is the complete surprise. And as soon as realise the true situation, the urgency is to get the boat to them as fast as possible, so engine on and get back there.

Dropping any of the emergency equipment at early stages takes eyes off the sea - where they were, where they are now. The RN have crew shouting and pointing all the time. “Mob bears 7oclock 400 yards!” and that’s a good system. It is nothing at all like the dayskipper-style calmly adjusting sails and wafting back to pick up a fender.

There’s ways to more realistically re-enact an MoB. Dropping the LR doesn’t help much if at all in solving the real-life issues. It more likely shows that you haven’t tried to get into a liferaft, nor ever had an MoB...

I agree with you about the liferaft but still think the most important and immediate action should be dropping the lifebelt/danbouy before doing anything else if shorthanded. In any normal situation it's just two of us on the boat who know how to sail and the remaining person on board will need to stop the boat, turn the boat, drop sails, start engine or whatever and cannot keep and eye on the person, but stands a chance if the first action is throwing something very visible, and the second is stopping the boat no matter how messily.

All the better actions are around prevention of course.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

.... It is nothing at all like the dayskipper-style calmly adjusting sails and wafting back to pick up a fender. ...

That is not really representative of the RYA's expectations for teaching man overboard. Motoring back is the primary method taught to pick up the MOB and has been for a long time now. Various motoring methods are taught e.g. tack immediately and heave to, then reverse back under power, a surprisingly straight forward and fast and stable way, where appropriate. In Day Skipper the focus is on developing boat handling skills which is why MOB under sail is a element of MOB practise.

 

[prv]

I remember on a raceboat the mantra was that if the bowman goes over, do your best to hit him on the head with the necessaries as he goes past.

That's almost word for word what I tell people to do with the Jon Buoy on Ariam :encouragement:

Pete

 

[dom]

That's almost word for word what I tell people to do with the Jon Buoy on Ariam :encouragement:

Pete

Can't see you getting cold in that US Navy Seal drysuit of yours

 

[JumbleDuck]

The only thing you should be doing when you hit the water is lying back and relaxing for 1-2 minutes until the cold shock passes.

There is some very interesting stuff from the Canadian CG on Youtube which suggests that if you go in you have a bout ten minutes to make decisions and take meaningful action, an hour of consciousness and then as long as it takes you to die of hypothermia, which can be surprisingly long, if you don't drown first.

 

[Kelpie]

I'm surprised people are being so dismissive of the life raft idea.
As discussed above, I don't think it's a replacement for a danbuoy, but it may be a feasible recovery system, especially in heavy weather where you don't want the MOB to be spending a long period of time beside the boat. The life raft is less likely to crack their head open.

I take it we all remember the Clipper MOB incident a year or two ago- seventeen minutes to get him back aboard.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I'm surprised people are being so dismissive of the life raft idea.

I'm more surprised about the number of people saying "Useless things, liferafts. Can't get to 'em, can't get 'em upright if you can get to 'em, can't get into 'em if you can get 'em upright, can't stand being in 'em even if you can get in", because I cannot work out why these people carry liferafts at all. Perhaps they think that after a gas explosion mid-channel they would muster on deck and then board the liferaft in an orderly way, women and children first, singing "Nearer my God to thee" and, when ensconced, mop off any odd drops of water from their cloths with a tea towel and settle down to a nice game of shemmy until help arrives.

Honourable exception: Tranona, who has always been openly sceptical about their worth.

 

[Uricanejack]

I'm surprised people are being so dismissive of the life raft idea.
As discussed above, I don't think it's a replacement for a danbuoy, but it may be a feasible recovery system, especially in heavy weather where you don't want the MOB to be spending a long period of time beside the boat. The life raft is less likely to crack their head open.

I take it we all remember the Clipper MOB incident a year or two ago- seventeen minutes to get him back aboard.

I am a bit surprised by the dismissive comments as well. I suspect it may be due to possibly misreading of the original post and an assumption the OP was recommending releasing a life raft instead of a life buoy.

I on the other hand came to the conclusion the OP was only referring to using the life raft as a means of getting the incapacitated MOB out of the water. Which seams like a perfectly sensible option to me.

The life raft having a much lower freeboard than my boat. I would certainly consider using it if required and consider the 1500 bucks cheep to save a friends life.

Most of the time I sail with an inflatable dingy either under tow or on the fore deck. On longer trips I may not bring it or may stow it.
My first choice would be use the dingy. If the dingy was not inflated or it was to rough I would consider inflating the raft.

After I had returned to the casualty.

 

[prv]

Can't see you getting cold in that US Navy Seal drysuit of yours

Royal Navy, please

A mate bought another from the same source, his came with a crumpled-up set of mission orders for a boarding operation...

Certainly when I went overboard from the Contraption the suit made the whole experience very comfortable, indeed rather fun. So much so that (after warning the helmsman this time) I did it again on purpose.

Took the suit down to Cornwall this Christmas, and went body-boarding on Christmas Eve.

I don't wear it when sailing, though.

Pete

 

[capnsensible]

On the yacht I use most I have a helicopter strop, easily rigged to a halyard. I use a fender and coiled line as MOB practice device. Its a useful excercise to get people to practice recovering the MOB with this.

In bigger sea states, anyone on the side deck needs to be clipped on!.

Practice is the key for all numbers of crew, wind and sea states.

I get to do this more than most, probably 6 or 7 thousand times over the past 20 years but it doesnt take more than ten or so times a year cruising on your own boat to learn the necessary skills. Its not difficult! :encouragement:

 

[Heckler]

I'm more surprised about the number of people saying "Useless things, liferafts. Can't get to 'em, can't get 'em upright if you can get to 'em, can't get into 'em if you can get 'em upright, can't stand being in 'em even if you can get in", because I cannot work out why these people carry liferafts at all. Perhaps they think that after a gas explosion mid-channel they would muster on deck and then board the liferaft in an orderly way, women and children first, singing "Nearer my God to thee" and, when ensconced, mop off any odd drops of water from their cloths with a tea towel and settle down to a nice game of shemmy until help arrives.

Honourable exception: Tranona, who has always been openly sceptical about their worth.

I did the offshore survival course at the Robert Gordon Institute in Aberdeen. Part of it was in the pool and liferaft boarding. So go up to the 5 mtr? board, lights out, wind machine on, sound and lightning effects on, wave machine on plus a tw at with a fire hose, suddenly very life like! We were all dressed in offshore stuff, so heavy. Chuck the liferaft in, inflate it then all jump in the pool from 5mtrs. Drill was get someone in then they had to help the others in. Tw at with the firehose hit you in the face till you put your hand over your mouth, I threatened to kill him! Was NOT easy to get in the raft, was NOT easy to pull the fat feckers in! Once in, instant feeling queezy! So yes to the guys who say liferafts are not easy! Watched the Arc rescue the other night and in big seas wasnt easy to transfer peeps even in the liferaft.
Stu

 

[Simondjuk]

Having taken part in an extended liferaft exercise involving repeated immersion in quite cold open water, I can safely say that the unpleasantness of the motion and claustrophobic feeling of being in a moderately overcrowded raft quickly gives way to the greater desire to be out of the water and in the raft with as many people as possible in order to escape the greater discomfort of being extremely cold and suffering the symptoms of mild hypothermia.

The 'cut, stream, close, maintain' process becomes quite difficult to perform when you can barely move for other people, but once it's done and the raft is as dry as it can be made, the speed with which the occupants begin to warm one another up is remarkable and it suddenly seems like not such a bad place to be.

I still wouldn't want to be there for long, particularly past the point at which lavatorial requirements must be addressed. We elected to quit the exercise at that point as we'd gone beyond the scope of the planned exercise already and were over schedule.

If there's a moral, it's not to carry a raft that's too big for the boat and its crew. Not only is loading at close to capacity essential for proper stability, it's also pivotal to the occupants recovering from lowered post-immersion body temperatures once they've boarded and maintaining survivable temperatures during the subsequent soggy and inactive waiting period.

 

[alant]

Having taken part in an extended liferaft exercise involving repeated immersion in quite cold open water, I can safely say that the unpleasantness of the motion and claustrophobic feeling of being in a moderately overcrowded raft quickly gives way to the greater desire to be out of the water and in the raft with as many people as possible in order to escape the greater discomfort of being extremely cold and suffering the symptoms of mild hypothermia.

The 'cut, stream, close, maintain' process becomes quite difficult to perform when you can barely move for other people, but once it's done and the raft is as dry as it can be made, the speed with which the occupants begin to warm one another up is remarkable and it suddenly seems like not such a bad place to be.

I still wouldn't want to be there for long, particularly past the point at which lavatorial requirements must be addressed. We elected to quit the exercise at that point as we'd gone beyond the scope of the planned exercise already and were over schedule.

If there's a moral, it's not to carry a raft that's too big for the boat and its crew. Not only is loading at close to capacity essential for proper stability, it's also pivotal to the occupants recovering from lowered post-immersion body temperatures once they've boarded and maintaining survivable temperatures during the subsequent soggy and inactive waiting period.

All in the pee together syndrome.