Mmm brokers - don't you just luv 'em

[BurnitBlue]

I think that is a good idea. I'm happy to say I will look at boats in the Bristol and Cardiff areas.
Allan

I live in Skandinavia so I arranged with my brother in UK to drive 30 miles down to a South Coast boatyard to view a boat. When he arrived and had the keys and owner or broker present he sent me a text that he was ready. I phoned him on his mobile and directed him what questions to ask, then what to look at and describe what he was seeing. Also if necessary he could pass on my offer if I was interested. Worked very well. I didn't buy the boat but the arrangement saved me a long trip.

 

[xyachtdave]

Not sure what the vendor can't do themselves regarding your idea of the broker's role. The owner has to make the decisions and the broker seems like an unnecessary, and often weak, link in the line of communications.



Brokers are an anachronism from a time when people who went yachting had a man to do everything for them, from warming their watch to selling their yacht.

I'm not defending the useless lazy sods that inhabit all forms of business, but in the example of my friend buying a boat, the broker is now a key element.

When people sell they generally want as much as possible......when they buy they generally want to pay as little possible.

The personalities of buyer and vendor get involved. I probably wouldn't have bought our boat if I'd met the owner and thought he was a twit, no matter how good it was. Add in my mates dilemma with survey issues and you do need a GOOD intermediatery person...

...Not a useless lazy sod!

I've not got a watch warmer btw!

 

[jordanbasset]

Although I managed to sell my boat without putting it with a broker I can give a big thumbs up to John Rodriguez of this parish for his advice and speedy replies to enquiries. If I had not managed to sell it in Greece I would have definitely put it with him.

 

[chinita]

John is, indeed, a professional.

There must be other brokers who read these boards, I can think of one other only and I can't remember his name.

I would love to see those brokers who are lurking come out and offer some defence or explanation; to date JONIC is the only one and his explanations are about the only thing which would motivate me to use a broker again.

So, come on, pop your heads over the parapet.

 

[jonic]

John is, indeed, a professional.

There must be other brokers who read these boards, I can think of one other only and I can't remember his name.

I would love to see those brokers who are lurking come out and offer some defence or explanation; to date JONIC is the only one and his explanations are about the only thing which would motivate me to use a broker again.

Thanks

 

[chinita]

Thanks

My invoice is in the post

Did i get it right, what you told me to say?

 

[jwilson]

John is, indeed, a professional.

There must be other brokers who read these boards, I can think of one other only and I can't remember his name.

I would love to see those brokers who are lurking come out and offer some defence or explanation; to date JONIC is the only one and his explanations are about the only thing which would motivate me to use a broker again.

So, come on, pop your heads over the parapet.

I've been waiting for JR (Jonic) to respond !

The original posters experience was very bad work by the broker. There is no defence. I have been victim of similar experiences myself in the past when buying boats, and it has coloured the approach I take to being a broker.

Occasionally most brokers inventories can have minor errors, but usually because the owner tells the broker that (for example) the heater is an Eberspacher (using that as a generic 'hoover-type' term) when it is actually a Mikuni diesel heater.

Although as a broker I go over every boat we deal with in a fair bit of detail, I would not empty the aft-of-the-heads locker in a Jeanneau 35 and crawl headfirst down it, then remove a screwed down panel into the transom cavity to look at an Eberspacher. At any rate that's how you access it on my own boat!

We will not take a boat on without seeing it ourselves, and we put online detailed high quality photos of every boat along with the date they were taken. Sometimes we actually put buyers off going to see boats, as after a talk with them it is clear that the boat they enquired about is just not going to suit them.

We did once have a buyer come 200 miles one Sunday afternoon in January to look at a boat in a marina shore storage area near Chichester. I arrived before the buyer, intending to open up the boat and have it ready for viewing. I had previously phoned the marina to confirm I could collect the keys that Sunday, and was told they would be there. On arrival the office was locked with a "gone to the boat show" notice on the glass door. Neither I nor the buyer were happy bunnies. I'd come from Falmouth, though I was going on to another boat in the Solent on Monday morning.

 

[dovekie]

Helping forumites assess boats for sail

I think that is a good idea. I'm happy to say I will look at boats in the Bristol and Cardiff areas.
Allan

I too would happily look-at, photograph and report on boats for forumites. Based at Kerrera (Oban) so maybe not much use to many but it is one way for me to show appreciation to the community on here.

 

[[3889]]

I'm not defending the useless lazy sods that inhabit all forms of business, but in the example of my friend buying a boat, the broker is now a key element.

When people sell they generally want as much as possible......when they buy they generally want to pay as little possible.

The personalities of buyer and vendor get involved. I probably wouldn't have bought our boat if I'd met the owner and thought he was a twit, no matter how good it was. Add in my mates dilemma with survey issues and you do need a GOOD intermediatery person...

...Not a useless lazy sod!

I've not got a watch warmer btw!

I realise some brokers are better than others, although I've yet to deal with one I would call impressive ( I haven't dealt with Jonic, who certainly has a good rep on here.) My main gripe is with the business model. I always change cars through a dealer and accept that I get a worse deal than selling / buying privately in exchange for less hassle. The brokerage system doesn't seem to remove any hassle, but can add to problems, as in my recent experience. The pricing structure also seems questionable: a broker selling two 34' yachts, one 20 years old and one 3 years old, makes far more out of the younger boat although it is likely to be easier to sell with fewer problems all around. Unlike a car dealer the rewards don't relate to risking any capital. Personally, I would rather meet the owner as you get some ideas about how they treat their things.

 

[Tranona]

There are sound reasons why few traders deal in boats. Unlike cars the market for any given boat is very limited and the average time for a sale is in months. So the cost of financing stock is a big problem. Consumer legislation creates huge potential liabilities for a trader. A trader would look for a huge margin to cover his costs such as storage, finance and warranty so either pushing up prices or reducing the price a seller.

The current model where transactions are direct between individuals is low cost and efficient. The role of a broker is to represent the seller in the transaction and is paid by the seller. Typically the cost is around 5 percent of the transaction rather than 25 or 30 traders margin.

 

[Seajet]

I guess that's partly why my instinct was to keep it an informal thing among forum users, who do somewhat know each other, rather than hold it out as an organised scheme on a permanent post with an assigned list of names covering different areas. But in any case the only decision someone should be making based on such a viewing is whether to travel, not any more than that.

Even if the person who looks has different standards to the potential buyer, it's still a second set of eyes that has actually seen the boat, recently, and doesn't stand to make any money from persuading you to buy it. That's got to be worthwhile extra information alongside whatever the broker says, and nothing says you have to treat it as gospel. Personally I would take photos, again it's of benefit that they're of how she looks now, not when she was put up for sale three years ago, or even recycled photos from the last sale!

----------

This is an excellent point, and it must be difficult for brokers sometimes to get decent photo's out of an owner; I'd think maybe one 'pretty picture' from the owners file and a lot more taken in current state by the broker is the way to go, and it would be worth asking how recent the photo's are if interested in a boat.

I once accompanied a chap all the way from West Sussex to Plymouth to look at a boat, which seemed to be a peach; when we got there it was very obvious that the current owner had never done the slightest bit of even the most basic maintenance, and the photo's supplied were from years and owners before !

 

[jonic]

My invoice is in the post

Did i get it right, what you told me to say?

Almost

But you forgot this bit...

Hopefully bad brokers, (and some of them are misusing the word broker) will fall by the wayside in these tough times.

A professional and expert broker should be doing the following for his fee:

When first approached to broker the yacht he should:

Check the title history
Check the VAT status
Check the RCD status
Check registration status and where possible for outstanding finance.

Obtain file copies of all the evidence that supports the above and have sight of the originals along with written confirmation from the owner.

Personally inspect the yacht and advise the owner on preparations for sale and market value, then ensure she is prepared properly.

(With a distance sale it is not always possible to visit the yacht)

Once she is prepared photograph the yacht using high quality photography-not everyday snaps.

I also produce a short video

Jwilson from this parish takes particularly good photos.

Help prepare an inventory and then write the sales description.

Draw up a legal listing agreement.

Pay for advertising across a large section of media.

Mail shot his existing client base.

Start advertising.

Take all calls and emails, and do his best to try and weed out the COLOSSAL amount of dreamers and timewaters.

Conduct viewings having pre-qualified the client and provided them with a comprehensive set of details and information. Picking them up from the station or airport if required.

(In my experience the vast majority of sales are a result of midweek viewings.)

Negotiate any offers and work with both parties to reach agreement.

Draw up the legal sale and purchase agreement.

Hold the deposit in a dedicated client account. This should not form part of the broker's everyday business and must be held in trust for the client at the bank, with written confirmation that this is the case.

The seller should also have no access to this deposit.

The deposit is not to be released until all parties have completed their contractual obligations.

Help organize the survey and lift out - attending if required.

Liaise with the surveyor after survey and help re-negotiate or organize repairs if required.

Organize and attend any sea trial.

Once the sale is agreed he should then draw up the completion documents, including the new Bill of Sale, sales receipt and completion statements.

Collect the balance payment and hold in the secure account until the owner delivers the original ship's documents.

Once the balance has been deposited and all the documents have been received conduct the transfer of funds and transfer of ownership.

Finally help with registration, radio license and Epirb re-registration if required.

He should also carry professional indemnity insurance, third party liability insurance (including the yacht brokers boat moving clause) and be a full member of an organisation like ABYA.

Anyone not providing a complete service package like the above is not yacht broking- but is either just a commission agent, or worse, asking for up front non-refundable fees and merely reselling advertising regardless of if the boat actually sells or not.


There are many good professional and expert brokers out there and, like most businesses, word of mouth and testimonials are essential when making your choice.

 

[maxi77]

We see lots of references to 'timewasters' but just what is a time waster? I suspect more than once I have been classed as a time waster because I never followed up my inquiry. But that was often because the broker had misdescribed the yacht in the first place or I was carrying out research which would help me make the right purchase in the end. I would be happier if the yacht broking fraternity sorted out their own house before labelling potential purchasers as tyre kickers. Now I know there are good brokers out there, and I have been lucky to have dealt wit some of them but there are some that are dire and just saying hopefully they will go out of business is not really the answer as they will forever continue to tarnish the image of the decent broker

 

[[3889]]

....Personally I would take photos, again it's of benefit that they're of how she looks now, not when she was put up for sale three years ago, or even recycled photos from the last sale!

Pete

Or even, as is the case with another boat I am going to look at tomorrow and listed with another major broker , photos of two other boats, neither of which is the boat for sale No reference is made to this in the advert, I only noticed because of different galley fittings.

 

[Tranona]

There are many good professional and expert brokers out there and, like most businesses, word of mouth and testimonials are essential when making your choice.

Trouble is that when you look through these threads the people who have the negative experiences are not the ones making the choice. In most cases a potential buyer of a specific boat has no choice but to deal with the broker who is representing the seller. They never discover whether he is any good at negotiating the sale/purchase because it is the initial exchange that is negative.

There is a consistent theme - badly presented boats, poor descriptions of condition and lack of knowledge about the boat. There are obviously reasons for this, many of which lie outside the broker's control, but it does seem that many brokers take on boats that are substandard and will be difficult to sell.

Not sure there is an answer. Perhaps owners should try selling their sub standard boats themselves to realise how difficult it is. Then they might think twice about just dumping it with a broker who in turn will have little interest but needs to have a range of boats on the books. Similarly potential buyers need to recognise that they will probably need to look at a number of boats before they find "the one" for them and inevitably there is going to be some disappointment and waste along the way.

 

[jonic]

We see lots of references to 'timewasters' but just what is a time waster?

Ok, typical example would be- and this is fact.

I am based in the Solent but broker boats in Plymouth.

I'll get a call to set up an appointment to see a yacht in Plymouth.

The chap will say I am coming from Birmingham so can only do a very specific date. knowing full well I will be traveling a considerable distance too.

We agree that I will travel to meet him on his very specific date.

200 mile trip and a full 10 hour day plus costs for me.

We get to the boat, have a good show round, demo all the systems and spend an hour or so going through the boat. He then starts to relax and then in conversation lets slip he is only in the area because he was visiting his Mother and always fancied one of these but had never seen one. If he buys one it will be in 2015 to do the arc.

The worse one actually got off the boat and said if I win the lottery I would buy one of these.

They waste lots of hours, and considerable amounts of cash in fuel etc.

I often wonder what would happen if I interrupted their Sunday, walked into their house and asked all their family to leave, wandered around opening all the cupboards, trying out the TV and the Hi-Fi took £100 out of their wallet and after an hour or so said thanks I always wanted to see inside a four bed detached and might buy a totally different one next year in another part of the country from someone else.....if I win the lottery.

 

[maxi77]

Ok, typical example would be- and this is fact.

I am based in the Solent but broker boats in Plymouth.

I'll get a call to set up an appointment to see a yacht in Plymouth.

The chap will say I am coming from Birmingham so can only do a very specific date. knowing full well I will be traveling a considerable distance too.

We agree that I will travel to meet him on his very specific date.

200 mile trip and a full 10 hour day plus costs for me.

We get to the boat, have a good show round, demo all the systems and spend an hour or so going through the boat. He then starts to relax and then in conversation lets slip he is only in the area because he was visiting his Mother and always fancied one of these but had never seen one. If he buys one it will be in 2015 to do the arc.

The worse one actually got off the boat and said if I win the lottery I would buy one of these.

They waste lots of hours, and considerable amounts of cash in fuel etc.

I often wonder what would happen if I interrupted their Sunday, walked into their house and asked all their family to leave, wandered around opening all the cupboards, trying out the TV and the Hi-Fi took £100 out of their wallet and after an hour or so said thanks I always wanted to see inside a four bed detached and might buy a totally different one next year in another part of the country from someone else.....if I win the lottery.

On the other hand did he know you chose to live in Portsmouth, and sell boats in Plymouth. On the other side I have travelled much further, and told the broker I was doing this and in one case found the 'nice clean boat' was anything but, I wasted a day over that and then another broker once again knowing I had travelled over 400 miles cancelled an appointment at the last minute. I could go on, and this is the problem for the brokers image too many do treat potential customers very badly. The shame is that the good ones get tarred by the same brush which is a shame because the good ones are good

I spent over 25 years in sales, and some of the people who operate as brokers would not in companies I have worked for been allowed any customer contact at all.

 

[jonic]

On the other hand did he know you chose to live in Portsmouth, and sell boats in Plymouth.

Oh yes. It was a very deliberate set up.

Happens all the time.

All the time.

People brazenly lie.

It's part of the job unfortunately.


PS. I live in the New Forest

 

[maxi77]

Trouble is that when you look through these threads the people who have the negative experiences are not the ones making the choice. In most cases a potential buyer of a specific boat has no choice but to deal with the broker who is representing the seller. They never discover whether he is any good at negotiating the sale/purchase because it is the initial exchange that is negative.

There is a consistent theme - badly presented boats, poor descriptions of condition and lack of knowledge about the boat. There are obviously reasons for this, many of which lie outside the broker's control, but it does seem that many brokers take on boats that are substandard and will be difficult to sell.

Not sure there is an answer. Perhaps owners should try selling their sub standard boats themselves to realise how difficult it is. Then they might think twice about just dumping it with a broker who in turn will have little interest but needs to have a range of boats on the books. Similarly potential buyers need to recognise that they will probably need to look at a number of boats before they find "the one" for them and inevitably there is going to be some disappointment and waste along the way.

To be honest I think some brokers will take anything on and describe it as the owners wishes rather than honestly because to actually have the boat on the books costs them little and it makes it look as if they offer a wide choice. Of course they know the boat is **** so they just hand out the keys if any one wants to look at it and hope they potential customers will not get too pissed off. Also there is a place in the market for the boat that needs a steam clean inside and out before you even start to do any work, just don't pretend it is what it is not.

It does really piss me off when you are sitting with the cash to proceed in your bank account and you get treated like a bit of dirt on their shoe. To simply blame this on time waster and tyre kickers is really saying bad brokers are just the customers fault

 

[jonic]

The shame is that the good ones get tarred by the same brush which is a shame because the good ones are good

Yes this is the problem, and not just for the brokers but also the good genuine clients. Because they get tarred with the same brush as the non-buyers.

I don't know the answer, but I have started to include interior videos so people can make a judgement before traveling.

But it doesn't help my side as I will always get those that are not telling the truth about the purpose of their visit. However I have been doing it long enough to accept it will happen and just move on.