Mixed rodes

[Neeves]

Galvanising wear is a common theme comment in these threads, either poor life and where to regalvanise.

I do not recall seeing anyone complaining that their mixed rode, 3 ply or anchor plait, is suffering from abrasion. I read of queries of how to splice chain to rope and recently we had a thread on how to retrieve (and store) mixed rodes. Cordage rode wear does not appear to be high as an issue.

Is this because, despite fears (mine included) mixed rodes actually do not wear much (the cordage part) or is this absence of comment simply because most people use an all chain rode, people don't anchor much anyway - or do those with mixed rodes simply accept wear as part of life's rich pattern? So are abrasion fears groundless (accepting that there is reason to be cautious in coral - not too big an issue in some waters!)

And if anyone has nay experience - how does 3 ply wear compare with anchor plait.

Jonathan

 

[thinwater]

I anchored for years using a mixed rode with virtually no wear (mostly sand or mud, few rocks or shells, no coral). The chain, on the other hand, would lose paint rapidly when marked (not chipping--abrasive wear).

The reason? The rope is not on the bottom if the wind is about 0.2 knots. Perhaps I exaggerate, but not by much. Wear requires weight, and rope has none under water. Chain, on the other hand, rubs.

I had no roller wear because I used a bridle. The rope was secured with a prusik hitch. If roller wear is an issue, a snubber can be the answer. However, this time it can and SHOULD be non-stretch material. My bridles, for use with rope rode, are polyester or Dyneema (less wear, less yawing).

The rope was climbing rope, not known for wear resistance. Not even scuffed, nothing compared with climbing wear. Much less wear than a snubber would see.

---

Obviously this would be different if you wrapped it around something sharp... but that is less likely when the rope is always off the bottom.

 

[Stemar]

I have 17m of chain and a bunch of rope for my Snapdragon 24. The only issue we have after 10+ years is that the galvanising on the chain is tired and non-existent at the rope-chain splice, which has now become so stiff, I'm going to have to lose a few links and, possibly a few inches of rope, and redo the splice.

 

[rotrax]

Many American boats use a mixed rode, but posts on the iphomeport would suggest that all chain rodes are becoming more popular.

Both our Island Packets came with mixed rodes, one with 50/50 10mm-probably 3/8 now I think of it-chain and three strand nylon and the current one with 60/40, chain being the majority.

 

[Motor_Sailor]

Many American boats use a mixed rode, but . . . all chain rodes are becoming more popular.

Entirely driven by convenience and ease of use with electric windlasses and a properly designed chain locker. Push a button and it comes in, press another and it goes out.

This however doesn't imply there is anything 'wrong' with mixed rodes. With boats around 30 to 33ft (or smaller), having three lengths of 60ft of chain available for use with rope on three anchors, gave us the flexibility to anchor 400+ times on our extended cruise in a variety of bottoms, through numerous gales including Hurricane Hugo without ever dragging, and still not overload the bow of our boat.

 

[Neeves]

Entirely driven by convenience and ease of use with electric windlasses and a properly designed chain locker. Push a button and it comes in, press another and it goes out.

This however doesn't imply there is anything 'wrong' with mixed rodes. With boats around 30 to 33ft (or smaller), having three lengths of 60ft of chain available for use with rope on three anchors, gave us the flexibility to anchor 400+ times on our extended cruise in a variety of bottoms, through numerous gales including Hurricane Hugo without ever dragging, and still not overload the bow of our boat.

I'd agree (except I've not seen many 'properly designed chain lockers') - the reliable electric windlass appears to have driven the change - but that does not mean a mixed rode is wrong, even if it appears to have gone out of fashion. But the modern windlass commonly has a dual purpose gypsy, chain and rope, but that does not appear to have driven the choice back again (and apart from hand deployment for the occasional second anchor I don't have much experience of mixed rodes).

But one of the justifications of an all chain rode is that it is abrasion resistant (which is certainly critical in coral) - but now that I think about it - I simply do not see people complaining that their textile portion wears out - so is it part of a grand marketing strategy to sell more chain, swivels (and snubbers)?

I have been, unashamedly, spruiking lightweight HT chain and this was one of the 2 products sold by Maggi (their G70) so I was not alone - but with a mixed rode the weight savings of a G70 are unnecessary - which makes me wonder - what drove the change and what was wrong (if anything) with the mixed rode.

I do note Stemar's comment - rope causing corrosion - but that could be managed with a 2 part locker.

Jonathan

 

[Stemar]

I do note Stemar's comment - rope causing corrosion - but that could be managed with a 2 part locker.

I'm not sure the loss of galvanising on most of the chain is the fault of the rope. It's been sat in a cahin locker or in salty water for over 10 years and wasn't new to start with. It's only the few inches of chain that's surrounded by the splice that's the problem, and even there, the chain is sound, just rusty and it's got so stiff it won't go down the hawse pipe

 

[thinwater]

I have 17m of chain and a bunch of rope for my Snapdragon 24. The only issue we have after 10+ years is that the galvanising on the chain is tired and non-existent at the rope-chain splice, which has now become so stiff, I'm going to have to lose a few links and, possibly a few inches of rope, and redo the splice.

Really, the rope-to-chain splice should be re-done every 3-5 years. It holds moisture. Interestingly, I ONLY see corrosion at the splice, not all along the rode. And yes, the practice is to trim the affected links and to cut the splice off. I see this as a good thing (this will only cost 2-3 links and 3 feet of rope over the life of the rode). In the UK a shovel splice seems most common (rope weaves through many links), where as in the US a single link back splice is universal. Neither ever fails.

(This is not mine but rather a splice that has been there WAY too long. I wonder which is weaker, the rope or the chain?)


The all-chain push in the US is driven by proliferation of electric windlasses, by fear, and by keep-up-with-the-Jones (it would be embarrassing to have a boat without an electric windlass). This latter has also driven a move towards replacing the tiller with a wheel on ridiculously small boats.

I've never understood a hawse pipe for boats where the rode is hauled hand-over-hand. Isn't a hatch easier and faster?

My PDQ was all-chain and I liked that (actually 100' of chain backed by rope, but I seldom used more than 75' of chain + bridle since 95% of my anchoring was in 5-7 feet of water. My Stiletto was 6' chain with rope and my F-24 is 5' feet of chain with rope, plus a chafe guard on the first 20 feet of rope. I like practically all-rope on the smaller boats for them, where all chain would be ridiculous.

What percent of boat weight is your ground tackle? My boats (not counting back-up anchors but including the windlass) seem to have averaged just about 2-2.5%. I imagine it could be a bit less on a monohull.

 

[NormanS]

Yours is a special case. Not many of us on this side of the pond are in the habit of anchoring in 5-7 feet!
The depths that we anchor in, means that electric windlasses make a lot of sense.

 

[thinwater]

Yours is a special case. Not many of us on this side of the pond are in the habit of anchoring in 5-7 feet!
The depths that we anchor in, means that electric windlasses make a lot of sense.

I was only explaining why for me, 100 feet of chain is equivalent to all-chain. With all-chain, I agree that a windlass is very nice. Gotta love a push button, and hand-hauling chain sucks. Hauling rope is easy.

What I was suggesting is that more and more buyers somehow feel that a boat without all-chain and a wheel to stand behind is some how not a real boat, no matter whether it makes sense on the specific boat or not. You wouldn't want to sail beginner boat, would you? Big wheels in small cockpits that make singlehanding small boats impractical are just plain comical in my view (and yes, I've had both). Both wheels and windlasses only make sense when the mechanical advantage is needed.

As for rope chafe, I think this is an interesting thread. The ONLY boats I am aware of that broke a rope rode, did so due to chafe at the boat end, not on the bottom. In general, it either jumped out of the roller and got on the metal side rail, was not padded going through a poorly designed chock, or the boat was yawing too much and the anchor had created burs on the sides of the roller plates. These are all avoidable. In my case, for example...

* The rope rode is attached to a bridle with a soft connection. A non-stretch snubber would be a great way for a monohull to avoid chafe on the roller. It could be very short and would be non-stretch.
* The bridle is non-stretch and does not move in the chocks. On my current boat, the bridle goes to eyes (zero chafe).
* Though irrelevant for this, I never yaw more than about 10 degrees because of the bridle. There are many ways to reduce yawing, and in strong winds, chain is not one of them (since it isn't on the bottom, or at least very little of it and it dosen't weight much--this is distinct from the no-catenary argument).

 

[Neeves]

The paucity of replies suggests most people have all chain, which does not entirely surprise me.

The argument that the windlass killed the mixed rode, it might have done because it IS very convenient, is not entirely satisfactory as all (?) modern gypsies will take a mixed rode. I've only used a mixed rode by hand (and it takes much longer to retrieve and then pack away neatly than using a windlass) so I don't know what difficulties, if any, there are in retrieving a mixed rode with windlass. The earlier thread seemed to suggest retrieving the rope, coiling it neatly, retrieving the chain (dropped into the bottom of the locker) and then stowing the rope as clear as possible from the chain (to keep the damp rope away from the chain).

If we had a big(ger) and heavier yacht I would want a 'twin' windlass, twin bow rollers and 2 rodes (plus spare) - but the second rode I'd option as a mixed rode to keep weight down. The idea of not having a second rode, at all, and not having an ability to deploy a second rode 'mechanically' for a bigger yacht does not seem sensible.

The weight savings for a mixed rode are huge, and even more huge if you use 10mm chain! You also have no issues with snubbing. But you will wander about the anchorage in lighter winds.

Maybe the cult of catenary also contributed to the demise of the mixed rode? I'd support the idea that fear might also have driven the move to an all chain rode (but if no-one comments about abrasion then why the fear?).

Along with all chain and the big wheel (on small yachts) another trendy move is the use of G40 or G43 chain, instead of G30. Hands up any complaint of chain strength (specifically failure) of G30 chain over the last 10 years - so why the move to G40 or G43? Maggi, for example did not even make a G30. I believe in America new yacht are largely commissioned with G43 chain (and gypsy) which is a different link size to imperial G30, and BBB (and slightly different to imperial G70). I have no issues, at all, with increasing safety factors (which is what is happening with the move from G30 to G40 - except that safety factors for G30 seem more than adequate as reports of failure are non-existent and the only one I recall was of a weld failure (which will occur with any quality, G30, G40 or G70.).


But no-one yet has mentioned abrasion of the rope portion as being an issue (re-making the splice seems normal maintenance).


Another marine mystery.

Jonathan

edit

Simply: primary - chain + anchor, 1 rode (75m) - ours is 1.0% of cruising weight. Our windlass is a Maxwell RC 6-8 with 1000 watt motor (its a bit of a mix and match) weighs in at 16kg and lifts our ground tackle, anchor, chain and windlass to 1.2%

close edit.

 

[thinwater]

... Simply: primary - chain + anchor, 1 rode (75m) - ours is 1.0% of cruising weight. Our windlass is a Maxwell RC 6-8 with 1000 watt motor (its a bit of a mix and match) weighs in at 16kg and lifts our ground tackle, anchor, chain and windlass to 1.2%

close edit.

In retrospect, I guessed conservative.

On the PDQ (9000 pounds loaded):
35# anchor + 90# rode + 40# windlass + 3# bridle = 1.9%

On the F-24 (1600 pounds):
13# anchor + 12# rode + 0.4# bridle = 25.4# = 1.6%

This could be less, but I use 1/2" rope because I like the size of it in my hand. It also has the right amount of stretch (less horsing than smaller nylon). In my analysis, nylon is a little too stretchy, and polyester not enough. Oversize nylon is one answer to this puzzle.

The Stiletto 27 would have been about the same. Secondary anchor was Fortress with rope in all cases.

 

[Neeves]

Of rode as a percentage of yacht weight I thought as the question was posed by an engineer I should not guess nor approximate

But our anchors are 8.5kg (we carry 3 of different styles/designs - but primarily use 1) and the rode is 75m of 6mm (0.8kg/m). I have not included the bridle which is 60m (30m each side) of dynamic climbing rope.

Jonathan

 

[thinwater]

On the other hand, if I used all-chain on the F-24, that would add about 140 pounds, by the time I added a windlass (I hate hauling chain by hand). That brings me to 165 pounds of anchoring junk, or 10% of boat weight. That will make her rock and be nose-heavy, just as a crewman on the bow does.

 

[zoidberg]

But no-one yet has mentioned abrasion of the rope portion as being an issue (re-making the splice seems normal maintenance).

What does one do with 'abrasion' where the rope comes over a bow roller or a bow fairlead? Add sleeve anti-chafe tubing, of course.
Cheap as chips, cheerful, and effective.

So why not do the same to cover the rope-chain splice? Tie it on, both ends, and inspect when appropriate....

 

[thinwater]

What does one do with 'abrasion' where the rope comes over a bow roller or a bow fairlead? Add sleeve anti-chafe tubing, of course.
Cheap as chips, cheerful, and effective.

So why not do the same to cover the rope-chain splice? Tie it on, both ends, and inspect when appropriate....

Snubber. I use a bridle attached with a prusik loop. There is no reason you could not do the same with a single line over the roller. It becomes a short sacrificial bit. Since it does NOT need to be elastic, it can be polyester or Dyneema and covered with webbing, like a mooring pendant.

Webbing over chain splice. I have done that, works fine. Really, it is an experiment and I'm not sure it is needed. Another reason is that I use very little chain (5 feet).

 

[zoidberg]

Snubber. I use a bridle attached with a prusik loop. There is no reason you could not do the same with a single line over the roller. It becomes a short sacrificial bit. Since it does NOT need to be elastic, it can be polyester or Dyneema and covered with webbing, like a mooring pendant.

Webbing over chain splice. I have done that, works fine. Really, it is an experiment and I'm not sure it is needed. Another reason is that I use very little chain (5 feet).

It looks like we're singing from the same hymnsheet. Gosh! And there was me thinking I was becoming radical.....

 

[William_H]

As said it is all a matter of weight in the bow. Certainly on a small boat you can't keep a lot of chain in the bow the weight is just too much. So you go rope and chain or stow the weight amidships under the floor. Not very convenient for an emergency anchor drop. All chain will enable you to have less rode out so less swing room. Plus as said all chain is free of concern re chafing on rocks coral etc. However chain does wear and rust so must be examined occasionally. Rope if it does not chafe or get cut at the time will last a very long time in the locker.
I do not usually anchor indeed I went all last season without pulling anchor out. Imagine my embarrassment when I pulled the anchor out last week to find one fluke fell off the danforth with rust. Time for a new anchor, same type as it happened as it sits low in the anchor locker. So yes an anchor locker is a den of rust. The rope on the anchor is now over 40 years old. Still OK. The 5 m of chain is a bit rusty but OK. olewill

 

[Neeves]

As said it is all a matter of weight in the bow. Certainly on a small boat you can't keep a lot of chain in the bow the weight is just too much. So you go rope and chain or stow the weight amidships under the floor. Not very convenient for an emergency anchor drop. All chain will enable you to have less rode out so less swing room. Plus as said all chain is free of concern re chafing on rocks coral etc. However chain does wear and rust so must be examined occasionally. Rope if it does not chafe or get cut at the time will last a very long time in the locker.
I do not usually anchor indeed I went all last season without pulling anchor out. Imagine my embarrassment when I pulled the anchor out last week to find one fluke fell off the danforth with rust. Time for a new anchor, same type as it happened as it sits low in the anchor locker. So yes an anchor locker is a den of rust. The rope on the anchor is now over 40 years old. Still OK. The 5 m of chain is a bit rusty but OK. olewill

I'm not sure that stowing the chain under the cabin sole is any slower than stowed in the bow - your anchor will not be on the bow roller if you are racing so there is some frigging around whichever way you do it. Most full time racing yachts keep their anchors and rode stowed below the cabin sole - and they seem to manage.

I you race seriously I'm surprised you have not moved to an alloy anchor.

Your rope might look good but I would be surprised if there has not been some, maybe a lot, degradation after 40 years. I had a length of rope, maybe 1.5" - it looked fine, I put one end in a vice and put full body weight onto it - it simply pulled apart.

Jonathan

 

[thinwater]

... Your rope might look good but I would be surprised if there has not been some, maybe a lot, degradation after 40 years. I had a length of rope, maybe 1.5" - it looked fine, I put one end in a vice and put full body weight onto it - it simply pulled apart....

And I had a 30-year old climbing rope (11mm) that I used climbing for 5 years and as an anchor rode for several years. I anchored a lot, but mostly only at night, moving each day, so not that much UV. When tested it was ~ 100% strength (6400#), and I still use it for impact testing sea anchors, absorbing some awful shocks.

I'm not sure how you tell, if fading and chafe are not obvious. Was the rope you tested one that was in the sun a lot, or in a locker most of the time?