Missing yachtswoman in South west.

[Talulah]

Talulah,

are you a policeman then, or was it someone trying to buy a Macgregor, when we'd all be qualified in trying to stop them ?

Many moons ago I was.

 

[Wandering Star]

A passage plan is surely not there so some agency can veto the passage (I'm asking, not stating). I thought a passage plan was so the agencies would have an idea of where to start looking and how long to wait before becoming anxious. If I want to head off into contrary conditions against perceived wisdom, no one can stop me from going but a passage plan would just provide some help in finding me should i need rescuing. As it happens i've never filed a passage plan more detailed than giving my wife a brief idea of my plans.

Cheers, Brian.

 

[longjohnsilver]

I come back to my question which was, had the coastguard been informed could they have had her stopped and arrested?

might be if the insurance company refused to pay up for loss of the yacht on the grounds that the skipper clearly did not have a passage plan – other than a stated intention to go from Mousehole to Bideford via lands End.

How could she be arrested before she left, no offence committed?

And have you ever seen an insurance clause stating a passage plan must be created?

Surely this is all getting rather silly. I must break the "law" virtually every time I go to sea, I never have a written/formal passage plan that could be examined by a third party. And how would they know that I fastidiously check weather conditions beforehand? It's a nonsense and we all know it.

 

[prv]

A passage plan is surely not there so some agency can veto the passage (I'm asking, not stating). I thought a passage plan was so the agencies would have an idea of where to start looking

Wrong sort of passage plan. The one that's required is your own plan in your own head, not anything you may nor may not tell anybody else.

It is a bit of a nonsense for leisure purposes. The idea is to be able to throw the book at the master of a scrap-metal coaster who sets off without planning a route or checking the tides and weather and piles up on a rock.

Pete

 

[franksingleton]

I am not sure she did'nt have charts. ..........
..........
/QUOTE]

Nor am I. I was quoting from the Mail Online, not necessarily accurate but they quoted the person who took her for a test sail.

 

[dt4134]

Wrong sort of passage plan. The one that's required is your own plan in your own head, not anything you may nor may not tell anybody else.

It is a bit of a nonsense for leisure purposes. The idea is to be able to throw the book at the master of a scrap-metal coaster who sets off without planning a route or checking the tides and weather and piles up on a rock.

Pete

Exactly.

For a start the quality criteria for a passage plan for private vessels under 24m seems to be quite poorly defined. Even a poor passage plan is still a passage plan.

Secondly, there is circumstantial evidence based upon the time of departure from Mousehole that indicates an understanding of both the tides around Lands End, the expected weather over the following 24 hours and tidal heights at Appledore.

You can debate until the cows come home whether going inshore (which the above, along with other evidence, implies) was a good idea or not given her skill levels - it could've been a reasonable approach for many - it was nevertheless a plan.

It would be a poor lawyer who couldn't get a not guilty verdict on the basis of that if there were a prosecution.

As I understand it, SOLAS allowed no government the right not to introduce such regulations for all vessels, but it must be virtually impossible to enforce on leisure yachtsmen. You'd need a real muppet turning up in court, OS map in hand, to defend himself, to stand any prospect of conviction.

 

[mikefleetwood]

Mike

I do not think that your definition of a passage plan would meet those of the MCA/RYA.

No, I don't suppose it would - however, it is all I do, and probably the majority of other leaisure boaters (not far from the mark for many professional fishermen, too).

However I do concede that a trip of some 50 miles (or whatever) from one harbour to another round an unforgiving coastline would require more planning. At risk of further thread drift, it would be interesting to hear how many forum members would/wouldn't prepare a formal plan before, say, a short coastal hop between harbours?

 

[Deleted member 36384]

.... it would be interesting to hear how many forum members would/wouldn't prepare a formal plan before, say, a short coastal hop between harbours?

There are a couple of threads on this where that has been discussed.

A YBW Forum search on the matter via Google Advanced Search

 

[franksingleton]

Wearing my devil’s advocate hat.

How could she be arrested before she left, no offence committed? it.

By someone contacting the authorities and telling them she probably did not have a passage plan. Then, in the same way that you might be stopped and breathalysed on suspicion.

And have you ever seen an insurance clause stating a passage plan must be created?

In a case like this, in view of what has been reported, I can imagine an insurer sucking its teeth and wondering whether they should pay out. /QUOTE]

Surely this is all getting rather silly. I must break the "law" virtually every time I go to sea, I never have a written/formal passage plan that could be examined by a third party. And how would they know that I fastidiously check weather conditions beforehand? It's a nonsense and we all know it.

The MCA has agreed that a formally documented passage plan would be OTT. However, a chart with lines showing your intentions or a route on chartplotter. Some evidence, possibly, that you had done tidal calculations. A note of HW times in the log. I guess that most sensible sailors do enough to show that they have not just cast off and gone on a passage of any consequence.

 

[franksingleton]

No, I don't suppose it would - however, it is all I do, and probably the majority of other leaisure boaters (not far from the mark for many professional fishermen, too).

However I do concede that a trip of some 50 miles (or whatever) from one harbour to another round an unforgiving coastline would require more planning. At risk of further thread drift, it would be interesting to hear how many forum members would/wouldn't prepare a formal plan before, say, a short coastal hop between harbours?

Mike

I think that there is some confusion between what, as I recollect, I used to say to Brixham MRCC when we were off to St Peter Port, or Camaret and what the MCA and RYA would call a passage plan. However, the very fact that I had called up and told them of our intentions would have carriedsome weight.

Clearly, Mrs Unwin did not call Falmouth. Had she done so she could not have given an ETA. She did not even know how far it was - according to the mail Online.

 

[maxi77]

Mike

I think that there is some confusion between what, as I recollect, I used to say to Brixham MRCC when we were off to St Peter Port, or Camaret and what the MCA and RYA would call a passage plan. However, the very fact that I had called up and told them of our intentions would have carriedsome weight.

Clearly, Mrs Unwin did not call Falmouth. Had she done so she could not have given an ETA. She did not even know how far it was - according to the mail Online.

I must admit that I would not place much veracity on anything published by the Wail unless I could corroborate it from a more reliable source.

 

[bigwow]

She's not turned up yet then?

 

[alant]

If you go to http://www.rya.org.uk/infoadvice/regssafety/pleasurecraftregs/Pages/SOLASV.aspx#voyage, the formal position is set out. Ignorance of the law is not a defence. The last para, added by the RYA, says –

RYA Note: Skippers should note that this regulation changes the status of passage planning on small boats from simply good practice to a requirement under UK law for vessels proceeding to sea. “Going to sea” is defined as proceeding outside of 'categorized waters' (most of the Solent area counts as categorised waters, as do many estuaries). See MSN 1827 for full details.

I come back to my question which was, had the coastguard been informed could they have had her stopped and arrested? It would be interesting to know. Otherwise, we have a law that nobody is willing to implement.

The only way that the law might have some teeth in case such as this one might be if the insurance company refused to pay up for loss of the yacht on the grounds that the skipper clearly did not have a passage plan – other than a stated intention to go from Mousehole to Bideford via lands End.

1) It was not a commercial vessel,
2) No other crew, so no duty of care,
3) No requirement to report a passage plan to anyone,
4) Unknown if any third party vessel involved, which a passage plan couldn't forsee anyway,
5) No information, why the yacht ended up in Sennen (assuming it is the yacht),
6) No 'Master' available to blame (for what, is yet to be decided),
7) Her husband was aware of what her intentions were.
8) Having insurance, whilst recommended, is not yet a legal requirement.
9) What authority, do HMCG have, for preventing a non-commercial vessel sailing?

 

[alant]

No. Coastguard cannot but the Police have the powers under PACE 1984 to arrest someone for their own protection.
I have used this power myself.

You must have grounds to do so, which may have been fairly blurred in this situation.

 

[alant]

Mike

I do not think that your definition of a passage plan would meet those of the MCA/RYA.

All we really know is that the person who took her out for a “refresher” sail was reported as saying that she did not have any charts. It would be hard to convince a marine insurer, or any sailor with a RYA Coastal Skipper’s certificate, that a passage plan for what she was doing could be made without reference to charts.

But that was before she left falmouth & she was capable of reaching Mousehole OK, so not a complete debacle up to that point + she presumably rounded Lands End.

 

[alant]

OK.. So HMCG could inform the police who would then decide.....

That has implications for those who want to mess about in boats, that shouldn't be contemplated. Where will it end?

Can't go out unless you have a qualification + current medical certificate?
Many on this forum, would never sail again.

 

[alant]

Mike

I think that there is some confusion between what, as I recollect, I used to say to Brixham MRCC when we were off to St Peter Port, or Camaret and what the MCA and RYA would call a passage plan. However, the very fact that I had called up and told them of our intentions would have carriedsome weight.

Clearly, Mrs Unwin did not call Falmouth. Had she done so she could not have given an ETA. She did not even know how far it was - according to the mail Online.

Even if she had given an ETA, HMCG do not check arrival at destination, thats your responsibility. Even when telling the CG at your destination, they have no knowledge of any transit report made upon departure, so it can be cancelled.

 

[dt4134]

By someone contacting the authorities and telling them she probably did not have a passage plan. Then, in the same way that you might be stopped and breathalysed on suspicion.

I suspect the local police station would be baffled by such a call. Maybe if you reported a drunk boarding a boat with the intention of going to sea they'd send someone down with a breathalyser, but I wonder how many PC Plods would recognise adequate passage planning when they saw it.

 

[KevO]

No. Coastguard cannot but the Police have the powers under PACE 1984 to arrest someone for their own protection.
I have used this power myself.

Sorry, just caught up with this thread. Since when has it been lawful to punish someone (by arresting them) for their own good? And what 'arrestable offence' is she alleged to have committed?

 

[longjohnsilver]

Wearing my devil’s advocate hat.


By someone contacting the authorities and telling them she probably did not have a passage plan. Then, in the same way that you might be stopped and breathalysed on suspicion.

In a case like this, in view of what has been reported, I can imagine an insurer sucking its teeth and wondering whether they should pay out. /QUOTE]


The MCA has agreed that a formally documented passage plan would be OTT. However, a chart with lines showing your intentions or a route on chartplotter. Some evidence, possibly, that you had done tidal calculations. A note of HW times in the log. I guess that most sensible sailors do enough to show that they have not just cast off and gone on a passage of any consequence.

Sorry Frank, you may be playing devils advocate but, in the nicest possible way, what you are saying is nonsense. The police would no doubt laugh at your suggestion, insurers can't make up clauses or conditions not in the policy document. And as for actual passage plans, I'm sure most of us know what we are going to do, but as to actual physical proof, there's nothing to show.