Triassic
Well-Known Member
Got a message this morning to the effect that Mr. Hopkinson accepted my invitation.... so watch this space?
Missing boat found. Comments?
- Thread starter ThreeSummers
- Start date
RichardS
N/A
Still no sign of Mr H. I see.
I'm guessing that he's had a read through this thread and come to the conclusion that whilst on some Forums a good dose of "bull and bluster" will see you through, on YBW Scuttlebutt there are just too many forumites that "you can't fool any of the time" (with apologies to Abraham Lincoln).
Richard
snowleopard
Well-Known Member
Was the boat righted before being taken in tow? If not, I would expect it to break up if towed at anything more than 1 knot.
You may avoid setting out if the immediate forecast is poor but once you're out there, you take what comes. The only case for saying it should not be at sea is if the boat was unsuitable for ocean sailing.
silver-fox
Well-Known Member
Mister E
Well-Known Member
Who reported the yacht missing and when?
This is one part of this tragedy I am not sure about.
This is one part of this tragedy I am not sure about.
KellysEye
Well-Known Member
>I see there is still some question as to who exactly owned the vessel at the time of it's loss suggesting the contract may have been subject to delivery, and this may well explain the apparent detachment on the part of Sunsail. I also noticed that one of the names of the sailors is the same as the company that built the boat, I don't know if this is coincidence or is there a connection?
Sunsail boats are privately owned and returned to the owner fully refurbished after six years. The owner gets four weeks free sailing anywhere there is a Sunsail base. Basic details are here: https://www.sunsail.co.uk/yacht-sales-ownership
Sunsail boats are privately owned and returned to the owner fully refurbished after six years. The owner gets four weeks free sailing anywhere there is a Sunsail base. Basic details are here: https://www.sunsail.co.uk/yacht-sales-ownership
Pinnacle
Well-Known Member
Has any new information or evidence become available in the last 12 months?
RichardS
N/A
Fr J Hackett
Well-Known Member
Is this relevant?
Richard
It may be in that the boat could be owned by a 3rd party neither the builder or Sunsail, possibly registered under a flag of convenience and therefore not constrained by or equipped to SA standards and the delivery contract would be between him and the delivery skipper.
In all that I have read about this there is no mention of an EPIRB surely a fairly basic piece of equipment for such a voyage.
alant
Well-Known Member
Is this relevant?
Richard
Only in so far as to muddy the waters regarding ownership/liability.
RichardS
N/A
I'm not sure how it muddies ownership as, in my experience, new owner/managed boats do not become the property of the owner until they have been delivered to the Sunsail base which the owner has contracted will be the inital home base.
Whether the boat is owned by the builder or Sunsail during the delivery trip from South Africa presumably depends upon the contractual arrangements between those two parties but its nothing to do with the managed owner, assuming that it is even destined for the managed owner scheme.
"The owner gets four weeks free sailing anywhere etc" muddies something .... but I'm not sure what.
Richard
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steve yates
Well-Known Member
Personally I think the pursuit of sunsail by the families is only going to keep the wounds open. The crew were sailors, they went to sea, something went wrong and they perished. It's very sad, but sailing is not without risk, and trying to apportion blame, or worse , be compensated financially, is a sad state of affairs. I wonder how the sailors themselves would view the furore?
sarabande
Well-Known Member
Steve
It is perfectly possible to contract out a delivery to a crew, but you cannot contract out all the risks especially if, as seems from previous history with that brand, there are structural problems in new boats affecting safety.
Identifying the chain of ownership is therefore important, in case it had been possible to recover the boat fully and see if a structural problem was the cause of the flip over. The issue of recovery of bodies is another, highly subjective matter of great importance to the families. Sunsail and the cat makers should have managed the support for families in a more practical and sympathetic way. That they are so intransigent affects their reputation, and will not go un-noticed in the sailing/delivery community, or indeed their charter customers who may well become aware that the shiny cat they are hiring is exactly the same as one that flipped and killed three people under unexplained circumstances.
It is perfectly possible to contract out a delivery to a crew, but you cannot contract out all the risks especially if, as seems from previous history with that brand, there are structural problems in new boats affecting safety.
Identifying the chain of ownership is therefore important, in case it had been possible to recover the boat fully and see if a structural problem was the cause of the flip over. The issue of recovery of bodies is another, highly subjective matter of great importance to the families. Sunsail and the cat makers should have managed the support for families in a more practical and sympathetic way. That they are so intransigent affects their reputation, and will not go un-noticed in the sailing/delivery community, or indeed their charter customers who may well become aware that the shiny cat they are hiring is exactly the same as one that flipped and killed three people under unexplained circumstances.
Fr J Hackett
Well-Known Member
Just found this:
https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/biggerthantheweather/index.html#top
Questions about the EPIRB and stuff about pressure on deliveries, it also seems that the ownership was TUI.
https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/biggerthantheweather/index.html#top
Questions about the EPIRB and stuff about pressure on deliveries, it also seems that the ownership was TUI.
dk
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure how it muddies ownership as, in my experience, new owner/managed boats do not become the property of the owner until they have been delivered to the Sunsail base which the owner has contracted will be the inital home base.
Whether the boat is owned by the builder or Sunsail during the delivery trip from South Africa presumably depends upon the contractual arrangements between those two parties but its nothing to do with the managed owner, assuming that it is even destined for the managed owner scheme.
"The owner gets four weeks free sailing anywhere etc" muddies something .... but I'm not sure what.
Richard
Sunsail doesn't own any boats, they are all privately owned. Sunsail is a charter agency.
So my guess is ownership of the boat is transferred as soon as it leaves the yard.
Wandering Star
Well-Known Member
Apropos of nothing, I delivered a Leopard 40 from Croatia to St Lucia for Sunsail, without a doubt it was the crappiest built boat that I've sailed. I've transatted 8 times and it was the only boat I've felt slightly nervous sailing. When TCM (Matt) was looking for a catamaran he briefly considered a Leopard and i wrote a report in these forums describing the problems we'd encountered with the build quality during our delivery.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
You have obviously not read the background material. While many Sunsail boats are indeed owned (or more likely part owned) by private individuals, at the time of the delivery it seems to have been owned by Sunsail. Even though a private person may have financed the boat and have a contract with Sunsail the registered title may still be with Sunsail.
The important issue here is who contracted with the crew to do the delivery, and it seems that this is also Sunsail who instructed the skipper to take a particular route.
As usual we only know part of the story and key facts like where the boat was registered and under whose jurisdiction any dispute or formal investigation would be resolved are unknown. This may well explain the attitude of Tui in keeping the families at a distance.
alant
Well-Known Member
RichardS
N/A
I'm not sure why you think that?
Sunsail/The Moorings try to sell all their boats through the management scheme but not all their boats are purchased by owners. I purchased mine but there was no contract or money changing hands until the boat had been delivered from South Africa to Croatia, even though I had agreed, in principle, to buy the boat before it started it's delivery trip. The date on the contract was after the boat arrived in Croatia. If the boat had been lost on the way to the Med the sale on that boat would not have gone ahead, obviously.
There were 3 identical boats delivered to Croatia at the same time. When I spoke to the Base Manager he said that only ours was owner/managed. When title to the boat was transferred to us 6 years later there were some things which needed a bit of attention so the Manager took the good bits from the non-owner boats and swapped then for the bits on ours. He said that the other two boats were going to the Sunsail brokerage to be sold.
Richard
RichardS
N/A
Funnily enough we had a free 2 week charter on Leopard 40 identical to ours from St Lucia. It was only a couple of years old but was in a rather poor state and had Volvo engines. I discussed it with Sunsail/The Moorings when we returned to the UK and said that I was not convinced by the Leopard and anyway, I wanted Yanmars. Sunsail said not to worry because all those issues had now been addressed with the updated Leopard 40 and they had now also switched to twin Yanmars so we went ahead with the purchase.
And so it transpired!
Richard
