Missing boat found. Comments?

[RichardS]

Sorry, I should have worded that better. You are aware Sunsail have only refused to meet with the family as a result of the subsequent correspondence between them, and in particular the family's questions which I copied into post 10? Bearing in mind those were in an article printed in July 2015. I don't think you can realistically throw that kind of mud around and not expect a somewhat guarded response.

Now that put's a completely different perspective on things for me. I hadn't realised that those questions you posted in #10 were questions posted by the families or their lawyers themselves.

If those questions /statements were made by the families as a group, they should be ashamed of themselves and, sadly, they don't deserve our sympathy in the context of Sunsail refusing to meet with them.

If those questions / statements were made by one or two of the families, then the families which did not make those statements should publicily dissociate themselves from the families responsible who are destroying the credibility of the entire grouping.

If those questions / statements were made by lawyers, then the contracts with those lawyers should be terminated immediately as they seem to have no understanding of how to exert effective pressure on public companies.

If those questions / statements were not made by the families or their legal team, then I would encourage the families / legal team to issue a public statement disassociating themselves totally from those questions.

If there is any confusion about the origin of these questions then it is not surprising that Sunsail / TUI are keeping the families at arms length.

Richard

 

[Triassic]

In the interests of fairness, and because I appreciate not everyone has the time or inclination to search for things on the web....

This is the link to Sunsails press releases so you can see their version of what they are doing.

https://www.sunsail.co.uk/press-office

and a bit further back...

https://www.sunsail.co.uk/press-office-history

Unfortunately they don't explain why they cannot now locate the hull given a tracker device was installed by the divers inspecting her in January. The obvious conclusion is that she broke up and sank whilst under tow.

 

[RichardS]

In the interests of fairness, and because I appreciate not everyone has the time or inclination to search for things on the web....

This is the link to Sunsails press releases so you can see their version of what they are doing.

https://www.sunsail.co.uk/press-office

and a bit further back...

https://www.sunsail.co.uk/press-office-history

Unfortunately they don't explain why they cannot now locate the hull given a tracker device was installed by the divers inspecting her in January. The obvious conclusion is that she broke up and sank whilst under tow.

Can you provide the link which shows that your questions in post #10 were actually issued by the bereaved families or their legal team?

Richard

 

[Stork_III]

Can you provide the link which shows that your questions in post #10 were actually issued by the bereaved families or their legal team?

Richard

Seems to be a travel blog site. http://www.travelwrite.co.za/missing-yacht-crew-update/

 

[RichardS]

Seems to be a travel blog site. http://www.travelwrite.co.za/missing-yacht-crew-update/

Is that it?

I've no idea who Blaise Hopkinson is but I can't see any evidence that he is speaking for the families. Whatever, he is talking absolute bollux and must have another agenda!

Richard

 

[nickd]

I have great sympathy for the families, particularly as my daughter does yacht deliveries.
But it would appear that Sunsail are doing all they can and considerably more than they are obliged to

 

[Wandering Star]

Seems to be a travel blog site. http://www.travelwrite.co.za/missing-yacht-crew-update/

Not sure why it's TUI / Sunsail that are being held accountable by the families? I delivered an almost new Leopard 40 from Croatia to St Lucia several years ago and it was falling apart before we'd even reached Gibraltar. The most alarming defect was the main sheet traveller mounted on the hardtop bimini, the aft end of the bimini was bolted to 2 supports with totally captive bolts, the main sheet attachment loosened the bimini top and the whole caboodle, boom, bimini and main sheet, were in constant danger of going walkabout because we couldn't retighten the bolts. We made up a Spanish windlass across the hulls and over the bimini itself to hold it down. We called into Gibraltar and discovered another identical boat making the same delivery with the same problems. The patio doors kept coming adrift and there were other problems too. I wrote quite a long post about my experience of the boat when Matt (TCM) asked for opinions on different cats he was considering buying.

I think the boat is very nicely finished for floating around in sunny climes, but would I ever make another long passage on one? No I would not! I've made a number of transats on my own small boats in all sorts of weather without problems but that delivery of the Leopard was one which gave me a few anxious moments! This is just my experience, I'm sure there are plenty who will disagree!

I remember when we arrived at the Sunsail base we apologised for being a few days overdue and with a boat that neeðed some serious work before it could be put on charter and the manager of Sunsail told us not worry, the Leopards were the bane of the fleet and he was just happy we'd arrived safely - that's an absolutely true account of what he said. Even though the builders proudly proclaim their boats are delivered on their own bottoms, I think that's testament to the delivery crews rather than to the quality of the design/build.

 

[dom]

In the interests of fairness, and because I appreciate not everyone has the time or inclination to search for things on the web....

This is the link to Sunsails press releases so you can see their version of what they are doing.

https://www.sunsail.co.uk/press-office

and a bit further back...

https://www.sunsail.co.uk/press-office-history

Unfortunately they don't explain why they cannot now locate the hull given a tracker device was installed by the divers inspecting her in January. The obvious conclusion is that she broke up and sank whilst under tow.

What you seem to be doing here is sequentially reporting bits of unattributed quotes which (if true) show the family in a pretty bad light. In Post #10 you ask the rhetorical question, "And we wonder why TUI are reluctant to engage with the family?"

A few posts later you reference Sunsail's carefully crafted press releases, which of course seem perfectly reasonable in light of the bad image you have crafted for the family.

This is a fairly basic strawman PR tactic, which I'm not accusing you of, but which you may seek to amend if post #10 really is just quoting the words of some third party blogger on the other side of the world.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

General observations.....

Deservedly so, boat delivery should follow many conditions and contracts that are signed off.

If, as is usual, the boat owner accepts no liability to the crew for any reason, then the delivery skipper and crew have to do all that is required to check the boats seaworthiness before setting off.

If after a thorough equipment check, weather and sea conditions are found favourable for the voyage by the skipper and crew, then the contracted job has a chance of getting off the ground satisfactorily.

If no contract was signed, then as Judge Judy would say, "All you have here sir is 'here say'!"
Who said what to who carries little strength in a legal argument.

Any delivery skipper worth his salt will have a contract written up very much in his/her favour, for as one Octogenarian delivery skipper said to me some 18months ago, "most of the boats I have delivered have been unseaworthy before I started.
Due to my contract it enabled me to have put right, anything I deemed required and have it checked by the necessary expert to ensure as far as possible, the safety of the crew and me as far as equipment failure is concerned, has been done.
My contract always made me not liable for the boats condition upon delivery".

Without this he told me that every delivery skipper is open to a hiding to nothing.

I suspect though that some delivery skippers have little in the way of safeguards of a good contract and/or contract in writing to the crew.

I would assume that no matter if you are a professional delivery skipper or collecting your own boat, many of the principles of such a contract hold good. ??

S.

 

[Triassic]

What you seem to be doing here is sequentially reporting bits of unattributed quotes which (if true) show the family in a pretty bad light. In Post #10 you ask the rhetorical question, "And we wonder why TUI are reluctant to engage with the family?"

A few posts later you reference Sunsail's carefully crafted press releases, which of course seem perfectly reasonable in light of the bad image you have crafted for the family.

This is a fairly basic strawman PR tactic, which I'm not accusing you of, but which you may seek to amend if post #10 really is just quoting the words of some third party blogger on the other side of the world.

Firstly I am guilty of some of that, not intentionally but I can see how it can be seen that way. I'm not on either side here, and I'm certainly not representing or trying to defend Sunsail/TUI.

I bit a little bit to the OP because in my view the post was being critical of Sunsail based on the attached link. I read this link and it was clearly one side of a story, so I took a little time to seek out some explanations for the reported behaviour. Why after all would a company the size of Sunsail leave themselves so vulnerable to negative publicity? I didn't have to go very far to find the article by Blaise Hopkinson, but that to was an extremely critical and one sided article. If you do a little research on Mr. Hopkinson you find that he appears to be an independent "journalist and media advisor", so what is his axe to grind? Unfortunately, and if you have the time feel free to check this one out.... you then have to dive deep into the Facebook page linked to on his article which is the family fund raising page, and search all the way back to around June last year where you see various posts suggesting they need to go more public and find ways of putting pressure on Sunsail/GUI. Unfortunately some of the posts around that time have been deleted by the family (they admit to that) and Mr. Hopkinson doesn't feature on there at all.... until interesting enough today when he adds more of his views and even a link back to his article of July 2015. Draw your own conclusions.

In summary it was probably wrong of me to attribute the questions I quoted at post 10 to the family as I can't prove that, so I apologise. I agree there are lots of questions to be answered about this incident, and I understand the family need for an investigation into what happened, but there is a correct way of going about that. Producing misleading statements which individuals post all over the web encouraging negative views and publicity against their perceived adversary isn't right in my view.

I have no doubt that the family are going through the mill over all this and they have my complete sympathy. I can even understand how their priorities and judgement are going to be affected by their feelings. We however are not a mob and should be able to take emotion out of our thoughts and make clear rational decisions based on the facts available and I don't see any case made out here to publicly condemn Sunsail or GUI. They seem to have acted professionally and certainly recently gone above and beyond what is expected of them.

 

[rogerthebodger]

The was a thread on this here

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?448831-re-Missing-Sunsail-yacht-found-after-a-year-article

Reg Robertson was a member of the same club I am a member of Royal Natel Yacht Club.

I did not know Reg very well but did see him around the club quite obtain.

I understand they were in the north east Indian ocean when a tropical storm was on the route and had weather routing info from some one in Cape Town. IMHO they were routed around the wrong side of the storm and cats like that do not do very well in heavy storm conditions.

There are 4 things to consider.
1) Where was the yacht registered. If South Africa I know it would need a very comprehensive set of safety equipment and it would be SAMSA who would investigate. If not South Africa then that state should investigate the incident.

If Sunsail ordered the yacht delivered to Thailand the delivery would be in the hands of the manufacturer.

If Ex factory the delivery would be in the hands of Sunsail.

I do know Reg was an experienced yachtsman buy I don't know who the skipper was. I was a new yacht and I don't think it would get clearance to leave with the required safety equipment.

I am going to the club next week and will get more info from the Commodore who is a personal friend of mine.

 

[RichardS]

Firstly I am guilty of some of that, not intentionally but I can see how it can be seen that way. I'm not on either side here, and I'm certainly not representing or trying to defend Sunsail/TUI.

I bit a little bit to the OP because in my view the post was being critical of Sunsail based on the attached link. I read this link and it was clearly one side of a story, so I took a little time to seek out some explanations for the reported behaviour. Why after all would a company the size of Sunsail leave themselves so vulnerable to negative publicity? I didn't have to go very far to find the article by Blaise Hopkinson, but that to was an extremely critical and one sided article. If you do a little research on Mr. Hopkinson you find that he appears to be an independent "journalist and media advisor", so what is his axe to grind? Unfortunately, and if you have the time feel free to check this one out.... you then have to dive deep into the Facebook page linked to on his article which is the family fund raising page, and search all the way back to around June last year where you see various posts suggesting they need to go more public and find ways of putting pressure on Sunsail/GUI. Unfortunately some of the posts around that time have been deleted by the family (they admit to that) and Mr. Hopkinson doesn't feature on there at all.... until interesting enough today when he adds more of his views and even a link back to his article of July 2015. Draw your own conclusions.

In summary it was probably wrong of me to attribute the questions I quoted at post 10 to the family as I can't prove that, so I apologise. I agree there are lots of questions to be answered about this incident, and I understand the family need for an investigation into what happened, but there is a correct way of going about that. Producing misleading statements which individuals post all over the web encouraging negative views and publicity against their perceived adversary isn't right in my view.

I have no doubt that the family are going through the mill over all this and they have my complete sympathy. I can even understand how their priorities and judgement are going to be affected by their feelings. We however are not a mob and should be able to take emotion out of our thoughts and make clear rational decisions based on the facts available and I don't see any case made out here to publicly condemn Sunsail or GUI. They seem to have acted professionally and certainly recently gone above and beyond what is expected of them.

I agree with the previous poster that you really should amend your post #10 to reflect the reality.

If the family or their representatives should read this thread I hope they take my advice and distance themselves from Mr Blaise Hopkinson as soon and as distantly as possible.

Richard

 

[Triassic]

I agree with the previous poster that you really should amend your post #10 to reflect the reality.

If the family or their representatives should read this thread I hope they take my advice and distance themselves from Mr Blaise Hopkinson as soon and as distantly as possible.

Richard

I don't think I can amend the post, possibly because someone has quoted it. I accept that it is not shown that those questions came directly from the family, they are however still questions that were being directed to GUI/Sunsail, however inappropriate they may seem.

PS: I've sent Blaise Hopkinson a message inviting him to come onto this thread and provide some background information to his article.

 

[Stork_III]

I don't think I can amend the post, possibly because someone has quoted it. I accept that it is not shown that those questions came directly from the family, they are however still questions that were being directed to GUI/Sunsail, however inappropriate they may seem.

PS: I've sent Blaise Hopkinson a message inviting him to come onto this thread and provide some background information to his article.

He certainly doesn't seem to have any background in maritime matters. http://www.travelwrite.co.za/blaise-hopkinson/

 

[Resolution]

He certainly doesn't seem to have any background in maritime matters. http://www.travelwrite.co.za/blaise-hopkinson/

According to one Caroline Hurry, posting a comment on his blog, he is a seasoned sailor who has three Transatlantic crossings in yachts to his name.

Edit: Not that I support his comments on the blog, which read like low-grade tabloid journalism to me.

 

[dom]

I don't think I can amend the post, possibly because someone has quoted it. I accept that it is not shown that those questions came directly from the family, they are however still questions that were being directed to GUI/Sunsail, however inappropriate they may seem.

PS: I've sent Blaise Hopkinson a message inviting him to come onto this thread and provide some background information to his article.

I don't think one can amend a post after 24hrs. But no worries, we all take a side in these discussions and upon reflection it is sometimes apparent that we may have pushed a bit too hard. In that light it most gracious of you row back a bit on post #10.

It is also why a discussion like this are so much more interesting than the aseptic world of corporate communications; where words are crafted by teams of legal eagles and PR folk, words which seem strangely reassuring upon first reading, but upon reflection don't quite make sense. That's the feeling I personally get here; there are questions in the air, but asking them seems to reveal yet more questions. Perhaps Sunsail has good reason to keep stum for now, perhaps it is hiding behind a fig leaf, we just don't know. That's the vacuum we're all speculating in and it's a vacuum only Sunsail can fill; which I hope it will at some point.

 

[Birdseye]

http://www.bloodonthehulls.com

I've just read this, and if true, not impressed!

Neither am I . Repeated mentions of "our lawyers". "Multi billion dollar company". Not surprised that Sunsail are wary of meeting with them in what looks to have become an adversarial situation.

What would be the purpose of a meeting ?

 

[Mariner69]

There appears to be more heat than light in this matter. Lets revert to basics.

Admiralty law will cover this matter and is full of fine nuances in application, especially depending on what jurisdiction the vessel appears at any particular time. Commercial law will also cover the event since somewhere in the background there is a contract.

A person (or company) in a place outside of South Africa (SA) say UK decides that they want to buy a vessel.

The UK company will, like most on this forum, look around at the best priced vessel that meets their requirements and they will have drawn up their specifications before hand. They approach the selected builder and make an agreement, a contract, to purchase the vessel to build over such and such period in the yard, Standards of build will have been agreed upon as will the time for final payment and delivery.

In small objects such as yachts this is quite different from when delivery is taken of a Cape Size bulk carrier of 80,000 deadweight tonnes. It is more like a large widget. There are two extreme positions for change of ownership, 'ex-works' when the ownership changes at the builder's door and the other 'at delivery' when the handover is at the buyer's main gate. Between these two extremes there are many options available, CF, CIF etc., etc., all with fine variations which can make deciding actual ownership very interesting. As I said Admiralty/Commercial law is nuanced.

The transportation of the vessel from buyer to owner will have been agreed in the contract and will probably be the task of the owner; who could be the builder or buyer. Like the rest of this forum they will look at the options for delivery and it comes down to four options.

1. By air SA to UK; expensive, difficult depending on size and very rare although the military have been know to use this option.

2. By road, the new vessel is placed on a low loader and taken by road from SA to UK (in this example - Thailand same options are available but...) very difficult slow, at risk of hijack, problems clearing borders and customs.

3. By sea on a commercial vessel; expensive, are their any lines operating over the route that are suitable? The size of the vessel would occupy several cells on a container ship and require top of stack stowage. A number of Sunseekers were lost overboard in the Atlantic this way in the early 90's. So not necessary the best option.

4. By sea with delivery crew; possibly the cheapest option as has often been said here before. Where the owner may accompany them to gain experience of the vessel.

[By the way you can add/argue various factors above but the basis remains good]

Whatever choice as to means of transportation is made, a contract will have been agreed between the owner of the vessel and the transportation company (including one man bands) for the movement of the vessel from SA to UK. The transportation company should be insured for the task. The owner of the vessel would be prudent to sight the cover prior to sailing to ensure the vessel was insured. The owner would probably have his own insurance cover in place since he has an insurable interest.

The decision as to how to undertake the actual delivery voyage rests very much with the yacht skipper. He is a professional man engaged in a commercial venture. He checks the weather, provisions, fuels and waters the vessel. It is his sole decision when to, and how to go. He decides where he will seek shelter if necessary or heave to and ride it out. The outcome is to the fates.

I took a statement from a Master of a refrigerated commercial vessel a few years back and as we went through charts and all the other paraphernalia my eyebrows rose as he described three (yes 3!) hurricanes around his vessel; one in front going slow, one behind going fast and one to the south going north. The result was the vessel went through the eye of one of the hurricanes suffering severe damage, even though he had tried to stay in the safe quadrant and was hove to. I give the anecdote to illustrate that with all that is available navigationally and meteorologically wise there can still be circumstances when a strong religion may be the best option.

The vessel has sunk, the families have lost loved ones and may be in financial troubles. They may have insurance for their loved ones, they may not. They will have a heavy burden proving a claim since the liability (if any) will probably rest with the transportation company who may not have deep pockets.

The questions raised by the 'journalist' are unhelpful to the families; they need an advocate that, knowing the facts, will advise them of the likelihood of success in litigation or sometimes by an appeal for charity.

SA needs the money earned in exporting so there is no likelihood of this trade being stopped unless they, the government, demands sea transport with the additional costs which may result in the buyer looking elsewhere for his goods. The SA government has allowed the export of 15,000 tonnes of explosives grade ammonium nitrate from Durban in the past years so I cannot see this, to the government a relatively minor event, producing any changes soon.

Sorry if it sounds bleak but that is, in my experience, the way of things.

To put it in perspective, a bulk carrier used to sink on average of one a week in the 1980/90's (probably still does but I don't have the latest statistics) with an average of 25 crew and it didn't rate news cover unless some photogenic oil covered penguin popped up. Oh well.

 

[Stork_III]

According to one Caroline Hurry, posting a comment on his blog, he is a seasoned sailor who has three Transatlantic crossings in yachts to his name.

Edit: Not that I support his comments on the blog, which read like low-grade tabloid journalism to me.

No confirmation of that from him though in any of his subsequent comment posts, or mention in his experience listing which seems strange to me.

 

[Resolution]

No confirmation of that from him though in any of his subsequent comment posts, or mention in his experience listing which seems strange to me.

From the very little I have seen of his CV and these writings, much of his life appears a bit strange!