Misleading boat details

Mech inspection

Loads of good diesel wisdom here but little practical advice about what to do next. If it was me (and presuming this happened recently) I would go back to the broker pronto and say that in the light of this new information you want to commission a full mechanical inspection of the engine and a professional service - all at their or vendor's expense. Only when this is done (and report comes back with clean bill of health) will you consider the matter closed.

I'm also presuming that like me you're not suitably qualified or inclined to do this yourself (why should you)? Also, I am presuming that the engine wasn't subject to detailed mech inspection or service at time of pruchase.


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Re: Mech inspection

You've guessed right, I didn't bother to get a proper inspection at purchase - mainly because it had been serviced by a reputable dealer 6 months previously.

Personally I was only going to bother to do something if people thought there was a big difference between 700 and 1300 hours eg. whether it is like the difference between 50k and 100k in a car (large) or 20k and 30k (small).

I'm leaning towards the difference being small, but more than happy for someone to correct.

RB

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Re: Mech inspection

I don't think that that approach would get you anywhere. Odds are the broker would just laugh it off.

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Re: Mech inspection

Well if you look at it that way....to estimate the approximate sea mileage the engine has done around 7,800 NM!

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I hesitate to ask this because you seem a bit impatient. However - can you confirm that your recommendation is to run diesel engines above idle speed in neutral gear until operating temperature reached before running in gear?

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://aflcharters.co.uk>Dream Dancer</A>
 
Re: Mech inspection

Rob, to drift the thread a little, did you notice much difference between Kiwi brokers and Pommie brokers during your recent purchase?

I'm always surprised at the bad press they get in the UK, while my experience here is that they are usually boating enthusiasts and very helpful.

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> thermo waxstat that operates from cold start which when the motor is
> started will fast idle until a suitable temperature is reached

An Google search on "thermo waxstat" did not get me anywhere, do these devices have another common name? I am trying to find out if the new Volvo 2020 (19hp 3 cylinder) engine I will be driving from January is fitted with something similar.

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Re: Mech inspection

Joe_Cole is right, the broker might well not take it seriously but it's worth a try depending on how good the relationship with the broker (and indeed vendor) has become during the sales process.

And if a softly-softly approach didn't work (and you felt so inclined), you could then hint to the broker that no-one wants this to get messy and that you don't want to get into the legalisitic aspects that the boat has turned out not to be as represented at time of sale etc etc.

Example, just now I've bought a boat here in NZ. Delighted with it in every way but when I first inspected, the paper inventory said it had a full set of instruments (located on the helm pod). On the basis of a first inspection of the boat and the paper inventory I made an offer which was accepted subject to seatrial, mechanical inspection and survey.

Seatrial went well except that the instruments were obviously not working. Hence I very reasonably said to the broker "Well, my original offer assumed they were working and didn't assume that I would need to spend $1500 to replace them". Broker agreed and went back to vendor who offered me $1000 towards the $1500 replacement cost of the instruments. Everyone happy.

Granted, I had the benefit of doing this before completion of sale but I think the same principal applies with you. The engine usage is not as originally stated and hence they have an obligation to at leaast see you get peace of mind. And a mech inspection should achieve that. You are not asking them to replace the whole engine with a younger model, so they should be made to see that your request is reasonable.

All imho of course and only if you want the aggro. But if it was me I would ask at least.



Rob

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NZ versus UK brokers

Chippie - to diverge from the original thread and answer your question about how I've found my first NZ boat buying experience compared to UK......

Basically preferred it. Mainly because (as with everything else in NZ) the whole setup is a bit more friendly and personable. Treated less like a walking wallet and more like a fellow sailor. True, did meet a couple of hard cases who I wouldn't have felt comofortable doing any business with but I found the majority a pleasure to deal with. It's taken me months to find the right boat and many UK brokers would have long written me off as a time-waster and tyre-kicker. But most of the NZ brokers were happy to spend hours helping me to learn about the NZ market and the specific boats on offer - and I wasn't a time waster and one particular broker has just benefitted from me spending a 6-figure NZD$ sum on a boat.

Specifically, I liked the sale contract process of getting price agreement, then signing off each stage of seatrial, survey and mech inspection (which I chose to waive in my case given the age and condition of the boat). It works very well and the position is crystal clear to both parties all the way down the line and discourages unreasonable behaviour. Also makes it impossible to be gazzumped, especially helpful when a queue of people forms behind you willing to pay the vendor more $ for the boat (as happened with me). But vendor bound to honour original agreement with first person to 'go to paper' with offer and contract (me).

Names? Well, despite their size I found Gulf Group good to deal with and their individual brokers very helpful and knowledgeable. I also struck up a good rapport with All Boats Brokerage in Westhaven but unfortunately they couldn't supply the right boat for me on this occassion. But good chaps though. The only negative experience I had was from a Taylor Marine broker who did treat me like a walking wallet and put me off dealing with him (or Taylor) again.

Hope that's of interest!

Rob

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Waverider, advice, please...

What is your recommended procedure for starting a diesel engine from cold? I believed that I was correct in putting it in gear so that the engine had a light load whilst warming up, and I would be grateful for correction/clarification. Thank you.

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Avoiding wear patterns

Also start the engine from cold occassionally.

That will affect wear patterns greatly, in fact the amount of wear running a marine diesel at continuous cruising revs for a week is probably insignificant compared to the cold start that preceded it.

Think that if this was a serious issue, generators, water pumps, compressors, cement mixers, welding kits etc. would all be in trouble. Reality is that these all run at exactly the same RPM throughout thier life except for start-up, shut down, and the odd blip when put under a new load.

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Re: Avoiding wear patterns

Andy it would seem that a few people here are upset of what I have posted because maybe they fear that after starting up, selecting drive and motor from thier mooring on a cold engine they could be incurring unnecessary engine wear. I ask this, do you in the morning jump in your car and drive off straight away and thrash it up the road?


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Re: Mech inspection

>An Google search on "thermo waxstat" did not get me anywhere, do these devices have another common name? I am trying to find out if the new Volvo 2020 (19hp 3 cylinder) engine I will be driving from January is fitted with something similar.

Just try searching 'diesel waxstat'.....although I would be surprised if small marine diesels would be fitted with them Jonjo. Having said that Volvo are quality engine builders so they could be using something similar such as an electronic vacuam control.
You made a decent choice choosing the Volvo and knowing the quality of their engines I would be surprised if you ever encounter any major problems.


<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by waverider on 11/10/2004 20:45 (server time).</FONT></P>
 
Re: Waverider, advice, please...

I would say Chuns warm up your engine like you would do your car! Without having to explain about oil viscsosity and tollerences etc, applying load early may not be the best thing to do as it causing the engine to work while everything is sorting itself out inside! In a way strange it may sound engines work a bit like humans! They have a heart (oil pump) Arteries (oil galleries) Muscles that burn energy (pistons) Brains (E.C.U) and so on!

They can also suffer from a kind of cholesterol too! like humans on a bad diet irregular changes or using cheap oil, breaks down into carbon and builds up deposits restricting flow in the oil galleries....As humans If we were to go on a fast jog without warming up first what would be the consequences?

I hope what I said helps you mate, and if you digest what I have posted here it should make good sense and put to practice help give your engines a longer working life.

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Re: Avoiding wear patterns

>Think that if this was a serious issue, generators, water pumps, compressors, cement mixers, welding kits etc. would all be in trouble. Reality is that these all run at exactly the same RPM throughout thier life except for start-up, shut down, and the odd blip when put under a new load.

I see where your coming from Andy and a good point raised too. There is just one thing you have overlooked though....the items above do not have internal combustion!

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>I hesitate to ask this because you seem a bit impatient. However - can you confirm that your recommendation is to run diesel engines above idle speed in neutral gear until operating temperature reached before running in gear?

LOL...I'm not impatient Tim, is just that there are some doubting Thomas's here which frustrates me a little although it could be on the other hand that I did not explain things to the full.

Having said that I much prefere to place post's that are not the size of a book :-).

In answer to your query do you not have manufacturers operators hand book? it should provide guidelines on your diesels. If not, operating temperature should not be confused with running temperature the two differ.

Operating = when the engine and oil are at a sufficient temp.

Running = when the temp is being controlled by themostat etc.

<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by waverider on 11/10/2004 21:28 (server time).</FONT></P>
 
I don't know if this helps, but years ago I worked at Hepworth & Grandage (later part of Associated Engineering) in Bradford who made Hepolite Pistons.

I remember talking to an engineer who had done a lot of work on this. It was recognized that running at constant speed caused two problems; firstly the piston would suffer increased wear in the some parts of the piston skirt. Secondly if you then tried to run at different speeds the piston did not work so well because it had worn unevenly! It was possible to engineer the pistons to overcome the problem (partially at least) but they had to know what they were designing for right from the start. A piston is quite sophisticated, despite appearances they are not quite round nor cylindrical. It was fascinating seeing how they got the shapes they needed to the tolerances which were demanded.

I can't add any more; I'm not an engineer!

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Thats because to minimize friction at higher temperatures it is necessary to make a piston of a material with a smaller expansion coefficient than the liner Joe.

Yes I agree there is a vast science designing pistons, It's also surprised me over the years of how they can reveal what kind of life they have had too!

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Thank you

I interpret all you have said as...

Start up
Tick over/slightly fast idle till warm-ish
Off I go

That's what I will do in the future.



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