Misleading boat details

rwoofer

rwoofer

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Be interested in the Forum's opinion.

Bought boat last year. In the brokers details it said that the engine hours were approx 700 hours. Since the engine hours meter did not appear to be working I asked broker and they said that they believed the engine hours to be correct.

Since the hours meter is part of the Volvo tachometer, I followed recent advice from the forum and dried it out. Plugged it back in and lo and behold, the hours are displayed - only problem is that it reads just under 1400 hours. My calculations suggest I have done not more than one hundred hours since purchase, which means the brokers details were misleading.

So the question is does the 600 odd hours really make any difference?

If is really does make a difference, where would I stand with the broker/previous owner on this given the elapsed time?



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Myself as a skilled Motor Mechanic I would say first that it is a matter of previous owner/user care......meaning when the engine was in use by prevous owners did they on start up bring the engine to a good operating temperature before drive was engaged.......vary engine RPM on long duration to prevent wear patterns.....change the oil and filter regularly and have the engine serviced at regular intervals.
There are a lot people today whom ignore these important points. If the engine does not have a service schedual or log then I would suspect that some points could have been ignored.
For what it's worth I would advice paying a local specialist to give the unit a thorough check over for piece of mind before venturing out into open or busy water!




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> prevous owners did they on start up bring the engine to a good
> operating temperature before drive was engaged

Does this advice apply to a small 20hp marine diesel?

Genuinely interested because I thought an idling diesel with no load was the major thing to avoid.

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I would have thought that the main questions to ask yourself are
1) "would I still have bought it if the hours had said 1400"
2) "would the difference in the hours have made any difference to the asking price or the price paid"
3) " have I had any problems with the power train since purchase or do I forsee any in the near future that can be attributed to the 'missing' hours".

If the answers to 1) is yes 2) no 3) no

IMHO there's no point in worrying yourself about what might have been unless you have a bee in your bonnet about the possibility of a 'con' being performed on you.
With the relatively low hours on the motor I personally don't think there was.
If you like your boat and the way it's sailing go and enjoy her and forget about it.
it's possible it was it's all very innocent.

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I agree - 'warming up' on tickover befroe setting off is a recipe for all kinds of problems in my experience. What is essential before setting off is to ensure oil pressure and coolant flow are established and steady.

Leaving an engine ticking over from cold means a longer warm up - in fact some direct cooled engines will never warm properly, resulting in all kinds of problems - hot and cold spots which can cause head gasket failure. Isufficient warming of the valve gear can cause condensation to form in the rocker box, leading to corrosion and failure of the springs.

The spectre of bore glazing also rears its ugly head if the engine is never worked hard, and left idling for long periods.

However thrashing an engine from cold is also a bad idea, as the oil may not be circulating fully until it has warmed up, and low combustion chamber tempratures may result in poor combustion with the attendant problems for the pistons and valve seats, notably with petrol engines.

Working boats' engines are never fired up until they are needed - not only to save fuel, but because of the problems it causes. You will never see a fishing boat with its engine left idling for any length of time - unless it is running the hydraulics for lifting gear etc, for example.

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Thank you, it sounds like my normal departure routine is ok.

1. Open engine intake value and set battery switch.
2. Take off mainsail cover and springs.
3. Tell crew almost ready to go and start engine.
4. Crew disappear off to the marina toilets and then they start searching for lost clothing and/or apply suntan cream.
4. Get frustrated and stop engine after 2 minutes of idling.
5. Retrieve crew.
6. Restart engine and depart at low revs after 1 minute of idling.

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Althorne's advice is good. Truth is that a 1,400 hour engine from a good home can be far more sound than a 700 hour unit that has been abused. Hours by themselves do little harm - it's the starting, stopping and maintenance that are crucial.

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i agree with this. A good ruse for an early start is to simply start the engines first thing. Instant rushing off to loos/showers etc

But it only works once a season.

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It Applys TO ALL ENGINES! JonJo....although a diesel will need higher revs to warm up. After working 35 years on most types of engines (including 4 years in aviation working on lycoming 4 & 6 cyl engines) I think by now I would know just a tadd about wear and tear! don't you think?

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Also for you diesel heads.....a diesel engine has far higher compression than a petrol...and allthough the injectors are spraying a mist into the combustion chamber at low temperators this is not all burnt off when the cylinder fires....hence why there is evidence of a tadd of blue smoke from the exhaust....the unburnt fuel adds more compression and why the engine on start up is slightly more noisy. At this point this is where damage to the pistons above the rings can occur as the crown has not reached temperature and expanded to the warm running tollerences...revving a diesel hard when cold has nearly the same effect of using 'Easy Start'....basically over time it will loose compression and become harder to start from cold! Last of all I did not say to sit there while the engine idles to temperature (read up!) and for any of you here whom have any mechanical knowledge will know were I am coming from.

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I would have thought that whatever the broker says is generally to be taken with a pinch of salt. They could only advise you on what they had in front of them in any case. However, they are out to sell you something, something which you want to hear. Even if the hours were true, there's never really any proof of maintenance.

I would do what most people do. Drain sumps, change filters, plugs, gaskets, that sort of thing, give it a good gunking if needed and then treat it as if it were a brand new engine. If it is a diesel my advice is do not idle from start, just get going as soon as poss, I don't mean break your neck, just don't hang around. Petrol, well that's a pain in the arse when damp, so a little warm up is better for it.

Hello to the forum, that's my first tuppence.

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> It Applys TO ALL ENGINES! JonJo

> I think by now I would know just a tadd about wear and tear! don't you think?

Why do many leisure and professional mariners not follow your advice?

Could it be that after a couple of minutes of idling to obtain sufficient oil pressure the best way to get an engine up to operating temperature is some moderate load. A yacht engine will typically experience such moderate load while leaving a marina and keeping below a river speed limit?

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Re: hi there

fill in a bit of bio, where from, what boat you sail/drive if any, perhaps? Name not needed realy.

wheres rocquaine bay? Are there any other places apart from Rocquaine that include all the vowels?

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Wear patterns

,,,"vary engine RPM on long duration to prevent wear patterns"...

Could you tell me more about that?
This is something I was already aware of, but never understood what really "long duration" and "vary RPM" mean.
See, in my (rather heavy, full displacement) boat, the cruising speed depends actually on the hull.
It is pointless (both in terms of speed gain and fuel consumption) to vary RPMs significantly when cruising.
As a result, sometimes engines run for hours (but never more than 7-8) at the same RPM.
BTW, I'm talking about Caterpillar 3116, normally running at 1600-1800 (out of the 2800 max!)
I always assumed that wear patterns can be an issue for veeery long range boats, like oceanic trawlers, whose engines can run continuously for quite some days - is that correct?
And besides the time, how much of variation in RPM is sufficient to avoid wear patterns? Is + or - 100 RPM enough?
Thanks in advance for your viewpoint!

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Re: Wear patterns

Well MapisM I have to say Caterpiller is probably one of the best engines manufactured today for marine use....what I like about these superb quality engines is that if the fan belt snaps your engine still pumps coolant :-) I have a friend in south east Asia who chartered 72 footers out of 8 of his fleet 5 were powered by Cats...He swore by them. as for your question....Yes a variation of around 100 RPM is ok 100 to 200 RPM would be better, all that you are doing is varying engine load which will definitly help towards a longer engine life.



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JonJo Why do you keep biting at my ankles, does it go back to the Ian Grant thread? It was not my fault that MainlySteam took my side back then BUT! it was just common sense considering the subject whilst you seemed to be having an off day. If you wish to clear the air for what ever reason PM me, where we can eliminate any differences!

>Why do many leisure and professional mariners not follow your advice?

The answer to that is many with mechanical knowledge practice this already! and if you are implying to the posts on this thread I dont see many disagreeing with me do you?

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> JonJo Why do you keep biting at my ankles, does it go back to the
> Ian Grant thread

Sorry you perceive things this way, I made no connection with the IanGrant thread when pitching in here. I had forgotten the names involved apart from MainlySteam’s feline reincarnation, (cannot get Red Dwarf images out of my head).

You made a statement about the importance of bringing an engine up to operating temperature before applying load. This was at odds with what I have heard about not letting diesel engines idle and my own experience about how slowly they reach full temp running at idle.

Had it not been for your claim about professional knowledge on the subject I would have ignored the posting but I decided to ask a "genuine" question. Your reply was dismissive as you simply shouted out your unquestionable professional authority.

> and if you are implying to the posts on this thread I don’t see many
> disagreeing with me do you?

Well if you want to turn it into an online popularity contest, then it looks like I am 2-0 ahead!

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Ok Jonjo point taken...perhaps it's a case of how different people will interpret reading post's.

>You made a statement about the importance of bringing an engine up to operating temperature before applying load. This was at odds with what I have heard about not letting diesel engines idle and my own experience about how slowly they reach full temp running at idle.

Yes there is truth there if the engine is on low idle.....most diesels manufactured today have a thermo waxstat that operates from cold start which when the motor is started will fast idle until a suitable temperature is reached. So with respect to my earlier post I did not give any RPM guide assuming experienced operators would know this.

>Well if you want to turn it into an online popularity contest, then it looks like I am 2-0 ahead!

Sorry Jonjo......I did not realise I had entered one!


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