Mirror offshore rigging and general tips

[Danthegunner]

Hi, if this forum still going I just acquired an old 1968 mk1. She's a total mess inside and out and I want to restored her. I can find the basic specifications but not the full design for restoration purposes. Can anyone help or point me in the right direction?

 

[LittleSister]

You might be able to obtain drawings from Van de Stadt, the original designers (in the Netherlands), but I imagine that will be expensive. I can't remember who the original UK builders were, nor the later builders who produced the Mk2, but I would be very surprised if they weren't long gone. I doubt you would actually need full drawings, it will be a matter of working with what you have, and applying general techniques.

I imagine by far the majority of the challenges you might face will be much the same as for most older small GRP boats. People will be most likely to be able to help if you ask specific questions, ideally with photographs where relevant (You will have to have a few more posts (5 or 6 perhaps?) before you can post photos on here.

I am not aware of any current YBW forumites having a Mirror Offshore, though there has been in the past. It might be worth rummaging around online (including ones advertised for sale) and keeping an eye out in boatyards etc. to try to find current owners, but I suspect there will be few problems where that would be vital for your purposes. Once you have your boat on the water, you will likely start spotting other, and they you.

 

[Danthegunner]

Thanks LittleSister. I do actually have quite a bit of written information including the original Registration Certificate and original operator's books. I am new to yachting although I did take GCE O'level Seamanship at school and used to sail dinghies as a teenager, some 45 years ago. I suspect you are right and to be honest I wasn't sure how to start the thread off. So many questions. In a sympathetic reno I wanted to understand the layout of the interior especially. I only have a few advertising photos in black and white to go on.

The cabin walls and roof are in a bad way with flaking paint and black mold. I was planning to sand it back to the fibreglass and reseal and paint. Does that sound right? Would primer seal it sufficiently so as not to come back?

 

[William_H]

Hello Dan
I am not familiar with Mirror Offshore 19ft but have had a 21ft for 45 years. A few thoughts on interior. I do not think the boat big enough for cupboards, galley etc.
I like the idea of bunks from bow right aft to under cockpit. These should be sealed so air tanks. You can if you wish put in access ports for some stowage. Essentially when using the boat most stuff sits on bunks. You do however need some structure under the mast to take the downward pressure. Sometimes a post sometimes a bulkhead.
Cushions are a question. The covers may be a lost cause. I made new covers from cotton drill cheap fabric. I remove them every winter for a wash. You may also need to replace the foam. Use the old foam as a pattern. PM me if you want coaching on DIY cushions.
Just clean up the interior as best you can (bleach is good) a bit of paint will also help. and get the boat in service. You will then discover what you really need. ol'will

 

[LittleSister]

I have somewhere the plan of the internal layout of the Mk 1 Mirror Offshore. I have to go out now, but will look it out later and try to post it here. I also have an interesting old article about the Mirror Offshore, which I will try to send to you by Private Message.

Contrary to William H's expectations, it did have 'furniture' - it is an unusually voluminous 19 footer. It had a separate heads compartment (from memory) on the port side adjacent the companionway. Adjacent to that was a gimballed single burner gas burner (with bottle hanging directly underneath). That was over or behind a sink with, I think, a cupboard underneath. If I remember correctly the two berths were (1) on the port side ahead of the galley reaching up into the bow, and (2) on the starboard side from the cockpit bulkhead forward. These would have lockers underneath (probably top accessed). The inboard engine would be under the cockpit/companionway steps. If it doesn't have an inboard engine that would provide additional storage space.

I was interested in these boats some years ago (and could be again!), and have quite a soft spot for them. I found some interesting accounts and references online back then. Someone had sailed one from mainland USA to Hawaii, for instance, and there was a woman cruising around the Med (Greek Islands?) in one. Another I heard of by word of mouth regularly(?) sailed from the Humber across the North Sea to the continent. Of course, mostly they will have been used for much more modest local pottering.

Hopefully, you will have found the excellent 'Keep Turning Left' series of videos (some on YouTube, I think others are on his own website), where former YBW forumite Dylan Winter was slowly circumnavigating the UK, exploring every river and inlet on his way (taking advantage of its shoal draft), and meeting people. He started off in a Mirror Offshore, which he seemed to cherish, but had problems with his engine, which he seemed afraid of and never really got to grips with and fully sorted out or replaced. I think it was the engine that prompted him to change to another boat, the first in a series of progressively larger boats.

 

[Danthegunner]

thanks Will, when I am allowed I will post pictures I have seen of the fully equipped galley that was standard on first purchase. they even claimed to offer unbreakable crockery!
Thanks LittleSister that would be awesome if you can find them. I have the original single cylinder diesel Volvo Penta MD1 engine but the piston is seized. I hope I can work on it without complete removal. The engine start is underneath where the sink should be with a binacled stove next. Opposite that is a toilet with proper porcelain bowl (which I have! Soon I will post videos and I am hoping to vlog the restoration to some degree. Renovation 101 for Dummies

Yes I have seen Keepturningleft though not all of it yet. I found a vlog of a guy from Brightlingsea justifying his £3500 price ticket some years ago. That was quite interesting too.

Thank you so much for your interest and support

 

[Neeves]

Dan,

Welcome to the forum.

Its called PBO for a reason, so you have come to the right place.

Good luck - and take note of the recommendation for photos - even today they are with a thousand words. I think you should be permitted to post images now or after your next post.

Jonathan

 

[JerryRhum]

A few snaps of my Mark 1 during a basic re-furb


The galley has had the stove replaced by a simple camping version. The sink was plastic and had a hole in it, so I replaced it with a stainless steel one of similar (but not exact) dimensions.
I think the tap is original and is hand pumped.



Scrapping back the flaking paint, sanding and repainting proved to arduous, so I went for the spray glue and lining felt approach. Here you can see where I was still getting the edges right. There is storage space in the bow (mainly for anchor chain) but you have to remove the whole wooden panel.


I think the lining looks quite good. This is the original shelving.


I think most of the fittings here are original. The white panels are hinged tables. Low but long storage space under the bunks.

hopefully these are helpful.

 

[LittleSister]

I haven't yet found my copy of the Mk 1 internal layout drawing, but this is the same or similar drawing, and it's confirmed by JerryRhum's photos. (Clearly I had misremembered, in post #2 which side the enclosed heads was on, and imagined an asymmetrical berth layout perhaps influenced by the Mk2 layout).

Mk1




The Mk2 (by a different builder, IIRC) has a different layout with no separate heads and an extra berth, different windows, and a taller rig and I think additional ballast.

I preferred the Mk1 layout when I was potentially buying one, and while acknowledging many owners would prefer a more powerful rig and I haven't tried either of them, I'm a bit sceptical of the rig changes (including various ones done to finished boats, such as adding bowsprits) and wonder if these are trying to make the Offshore into something it is deliberately not. (If you want a faster boat, buy a faster boat!)

 

[Tranona]

thanks Will, when I am allowed I will post pictures I have seen of the fully equipped galley that was standard on first purchase. they even claimed to offer unbreakable crockery!
Thanks LittleSister that would be awesome if you can find them. I have the original single cylinder diesel Volvo Penta MD1 engine but the piston is seized. I hope I can work on it without complete removal. The engine start is underneath where the sink should be with a binacled stove next. Opposite that is a toilet with proper porcelain bowl (which I have! Soon I will post videos and I am hoping to vlog the restoration to some degree. Renovation 101 for Dummies

Yes I have seen Keepturningleft though not all of it yet. I found a vlog of a guy from Brightlingsea justifying his £3500 price ticket some years ago. That was quite interesting too.

Thank you so much for your interest and support

There are no restrictions on you posting photos. Click the "Attach Files" and drop in your file. You may need to reduce the file size using one of the image resizing apps.

You may struggle getting the MD1 going again as spares are very scarce and expensive. Simple engines but 60 years old and if run in salt water the waterways will probably be clogged up as well as the seized piston

 

[Danthegunner]

A few snaps of my Mark 1 during a basic re-furb

View attachment 200457
The galley has had the stove replaced by a simple camping version. The sink was plastic and had a hole in it, so I replaced it with a stainless steel one of similar (but not exact) dimensions.
I think the tap is original and is hand pumped.


View attachment 200458
Scrapping back the flaking paint, sanding and repainting proved to arduous, so I went for the spray glue and lining felt approach. Here you can see where I was still getting the edges right. There is storage space in the bow (mainly for anchor chain) but you have to remove the whole wooden panel.

View attachment 200459
I think the lining looks quite good. This is the original shelving.

View attachment 200460
I think most of the fittings here are original. The white panels are hinged tables. Low but long storage space under the bunks.

hopefully these are helpful.

Thanks for sharing these.

 

[Danthegunner]

There are no restrictions on you posting photos. Click the "Attach Files" and drop in your file. You may need to reduce the file size using one of the image resizing apps.

You may struggle getting the MD1 going again as spares are very scarce and expensive. Simple engines but 60 years old and if run in salt water the waterways will probably be clogged up as well as the seized piston

Thanks Tranona

I thought I had to wait till i'd done 6 posts. I think this is my 6th . I will see what I can do with the engine at least I have the original Volvo books. I found this website where they claim to sell many parts:

Volvo Penta MD1 MD1A Engine Spares & Service Parts

 

[Danthegunner]

I haven't yet found my copy of the Mk 1 internal layout drawing, but this is the same or similar drawing, and it's confirmed by JerryRhum's photos. (Clearly I had misremembered, in post #2 which side the enclosed heads was on, and imagined an asymmetrical berth layout perhaps influenced by the Mk2 layout).

Mk1
View attachment 200476

View attachment 200477

The Mk2 (by a different builder, IIRC) has a different layout with no separate heads and an extra berth, different windows, and a taller rig and I think additional ballast.

I preferred the Mk1 layout when I was potentially buying one, and while acknowledging many owners would prefer a more powerful rig and I haven't tried either of them, I'm a bit sceptical of the rig changes (including various ones done to finished boats, such as adding bowsprits) and wonder if these are trying to make the Offshore into something it is deliberately not. (If you want a faster boat, buy a faster boat!)

Absolutely! Just like me she was built for comfort more than more speed! I see they put the Penta MD2 engine in the MKII but I doubt they are transferred. Shame as reconditioned MD2s are still quite reasonable and easy to find. MD1s not so much!

 

[oldbloke]

I think most of the small yachts that had bowsprits fitted were trying to balance the rig and remove intractable weather helm rather than trying to turbo them

 

[ghostlymoron2]

I once had a Mirror Offshore with bilge plates and MD1 engine. I replaced the heads with a chemical loo in the tiny compartment, it didn't have a cooker so I used a camping stove. I had plastic jerrycan under the sink which fed the hand operated faucet which I refurbished with new washers. It had a combined generator/starter which worked fine but low output. I fitted a charge splitter and an extra leisure battery plus small solar panel. Lovely wee boat but wouldn't dry out level so I didn't keep it long. Sold to a chap in Gosport. I was influenced by Dylan Winters videos, he had mucho problems with the engine but I had none but I think most were self inflicted.
Good luck with yours. I've got a few photos of her which I can email if you're interested.

 

[LittleSister]

Absolutely! Just like me she was built for comfort more than more speed! I see they put the Penta MD2 engine in the MKII but I doubt they are transferred. Shame as reconditioned MD2s are still quite reasonable and easy to find. MD1s not so much!

There's a good chance if you asked on this forum someone would know how feasible a change from MD1 to MD2 would be.

I don't know these particular engines, but if there is the physical space to accommodate the replacement engine, it's probably a matter of modifying the beds or getting different 'feet' made up to match the engine to the existing beds; and then replacing/rerouting the various pipework (though the cost of this can add up if they are different sizes) and wiring. If the engine rotates the other way, or is a very different power and/or gearbox ratio you'd also be into the cost of a new propellor.

I don't now how available and costly s/h small modern diesels, such as the Beta 10hp might be. These tend to be smaller, lighter, smoother and more reliable than older generation engines. Parts readily available (the Kubota base engines are use in various plant and other applications all over the world), but anything more than service parts very rarely needed. (Beta 14 is the same engine as the Beta 10, just revs/power not limited to 3,000rpm, and Nanni 14 is the same engine again, just different marinisation parts.)

Lots of old Bukh DV10s around, I would think. (I had one of these, 50 years old and it started and ran absolutely fine, though there's so many of these out there and some will have suffered decades of neglect and abuse.) These are older generation, and heavy, but well made, owner and workshop manuals online, generally most (not all) parts still readily available, if expensive (quite a lot of the parts are shared with the larger DV24 and DV36 still in production today and used in lifeboats). These (and the DV20 twin cylinder version of the DV10) are so common there's very active Bukh owners groups on Facebook etc. (though inevitably a lot of people posting are those are having problems, rather than the many owners still getting good service from their Bukh engines.) DV8s were the generation before the DV10, I think, rarer and I suspect not a wise choice compared to the DV10.

Having a reliable small inboard you are not terrified you might need rare/unobtainable parts for would make all the difference to how useful and enjoyable a Mirror Offshore is.

 

[Danthegunner]

I once had a Mirror Offshore with bilge plates and MD1 engine. I replaced the heads with a chemical loo in the tiny compartment, it didn't have a cooker so I used a camping stove. I had plastic jerrycan under the sink which fed the hand operated faucet which I refurbished with new washers. It had a combined generator/starter which worked fine but low output. I fitted a charge splitter and an extra leisure battery plus small solar panel. Lovely wee boat but wouldn't dry out level so I didn't keep it long. Sold to a chap in Gosport. I was influenced by Dylan Winters videos, he had mucho problems with the engine but I had none but I think most were self inflicted.
Good luck with yours. I've got a few photos of her which I can email if you're interested.

Yes please love to see them.

 

[ghostlymoron2]

I'll dig them out, have to make them smaller for email. Can you pm your email address. I don't think I'd be able to put them on this forum.

 

[Danthegunner]

Managed to get the piston out and the flywheel off today. Forums seemed to suggest that the nut in the centre of the Flywheel was 24mm or 30mm. It is in fact 55mm, measured across the flats and managed to borrow a 55mm socket with a long 3/4 inch bar from a great local commercial vehicle workshop. Used a bearing puller to get the flywheel off and then to force the piston through the seized cylinder. Will need a new piston but at least it's out! Wight Marine is a local Penta Volvo dealer and they have some great schematics on their website as well as quality parts so I am feeling more hopeful to be able to restore it. Any suggestions would be gratefully received. I realise we are not out of the woods yet but it's great progress. The conrod is absolutely fine. Tomorrow we will see what damage the sea water has done other than the already useless exhaust elbow.