Minister statement on red diesel

[jtwebb]

There is no short term solution for those of us who use little fuel. A tank will last many months. The long term solution must be Marinas sell white, this will take time as their tanks are full of red as well. Commercial users can still get a rebate but I would hope boats do. Surely some of the duty is to fund road infrastructure and my boat does not have any wheels. The two points are, of course, separate. The colour of the fuel is one issue and it is that that is bugging one set of Civil (?) Servants and the duty paid bugs another set. The two dont talk of course?

 

[macnorton]

It's no joke - clearly documented on the HMRC web site. And they really had no choice - sooner or later the commission was inevitably going to find against us and we would have been faced with fines against the government. What we need is for the government to tell the EU that they accept things have got to change, give the marinas six months to sell what they are currently holding and refill with white fuel and go back to the commission saying "ok, we're doing what you want, will you cut UK boat owners a bit of slack and promise no fines for the next twelve months?"

There are many more boats using red who stay inland than those that cross the water to euroland, so why should all these boaters be stuffed with even higher prices just to keep the minority happy.

 

[maby]

There are many more boats using red who stay inland than those that cross the water to euroland, so why should all these boaters be stuffed with even higher prices just to keep the minority happy.

Ultimately, it is in contravention of EU directives to allow us to use tax rebated fuel for propulsion. The current spat is over the use of marked fuel, but the commission will eventually require the government to insist that we use unmarked, full tax fuel in the engine. We may be able to dodge it for another twelve months - unlikely to get away with it for much longer than that.

 

[boatone]

Lets see if I can get my head round this .........

At the moment the situation is that HMRC endeavoured to circumvent EU rulings by permitting us to continue using discounted Red diesel but with the risk that those who arrive at another European country, in particular Belgium, run the risk of being penalised for having red in their tanks.

HMRC now declare that from 1st April leaving UK waters with Red in the tanks will be illegal.

Leaving aside price considerations, as I understand it, it is pretty difficult, if not impossible, for boaters to get white diesel delivered into their tanks and they would need to completely drain and clear any traces of red before filling up with white.

So, if I have got this straight, it will effectively be impossible for your average AWB to cross the channel after 1st April WITHOUT red diesel and it will be ILLEGAL if they do ?

So what we have, effectively, is a ban on UK boats crossing the channel ? And we also have, effectively, what amounts to a ban on european boats coming here unless they can round trip without needing to take on fuel in the UK?

Have I got that about right ?

 

[Wavey]

That's pretty much how I see it.

 

[maby]

Lets see if I can get my head round this .........

At the moment the situation is that HMRC endeavoured to circumvent EU rulings by permitting us to continue using discounted Red diesel but with the risk that those who arrive at another European country, in particular Belgium, run the risk of being penalised for having red in their tanks.

HMRC now declare that from 1st April leaving UK waters with Red in the tanks will be illegal.

Leaving aside price considerations, as I understand it, it is pretty difficult, if not impossible, for boaters to get white diesel delivered into their tanks and they would need to completely drain and clear any traces of red before filling up with white.

So, if I have got this straight, it will effectively be impossible for your average AWB to cross the channel after 1st April WITHOUT red diesel and it will be ILLEGAL if they do ?

So what we have, effectively, is a ban on UK boats crossing the channel ? And we also have, effectively, what amounts to a ban on european boats coming here unless they can round trip without needing to take on fuel in the UK?

Have I got that about right ?

Well, the effect is certainly what you describe. I guess that the various legal entities on both sides of the Channel would disagree with the word "ban" - there are legal ways in which we could ovecome this provided we could get the marinas to stock the correct type of fuel. I don't think that the new HMRC announcement carries any legal weight in the sense that they could prosecute you for signing the declaration and then crossing the Channel - it is not in any Act of Parliament. They are asking you to formally acknowledge tht you have been informed that taking the fuel that you have been permitted to buy here into another country may put you in breach of the laws of that country and, under those circumstances, they will not be able to protect you. "Ban" - no, "Warning" - yes.

 

[Chris_d]

Lets see if I can get my head round this .........

At the moment the situation is that HMRC endeavoured to circumvent EU rulings by permitting us to continue using discounted Red diesel but with the risk that those who arrive at another European country, in particular Belgium, run the risk of being penalised for having red in their tanks.

HMRC now declare that from 1st April leaving UK waters with Red in the tanks will be illegal.

Leaving aside price considerations, as I understand it, it is pretty difficult, if not impossible, for boaters to get white diesel delivered into their tanks and they would need to completely drain and clear any traces of red before filling up with white.

So, if I have got this straight, it will effectively be impossible for your average AWB to cross the channel after 1st April WITHOUT red diesel and it will be ILLEGAL if they do ?

So what we have, effectively, is a ban on UK boats crossing the channel ? And we also have, effectively, what amounts to a ban on european boats coming here unless they can round trip without needing to take on fuel in the UK?

Have I got that about right ?

Think I said that in post #2 what a mess though.

 

[boatone]

RYA News Item published today

 

[maby]

RYA News Item published today

Hmmm, they are changing their tune a bit - they know that the game is up. They are acknowledging other countries' right to impose the fines and just nit-picking over the words of the new declaration. looks like we can give up on sailing abroad till the marinas switch.

 

[534l4rk]

Surely the concession for continued use of marked diesel in accordance with the 1979 hydrocarbon oil duty act by pleasure craft related to the non availability of alternatives other than ordering a tanker to the refuelling site. Hardly a viable prospect for the smaller pleasure craft!

Comments made by Lotus John on the Motor Boat Forum (Red Diesel posting by Joliette) do not seem to have been picked up

 

[captain tomas]

Not much point in sending an army to the continent again
because we won't be allowed another Dunkirk without fines
for using red!

 

[Chris_d]

Not much point in sending an army to the continent again
because we won't be allowed another Dunkirk without fines
for using red!

It may well be a myth but its a nice one, was that the reason leisure boats were allowed to continue using Red after the war was as a thank you for their contribution at Dunkirk.

 

[Gwylan]

Not so!

I think it may make a big difference. The Belgians have been the only country to actually penalise us, but the others seem to agree that our interpretation of the directive is incorrect. There has been a case before the Commission in which HMRC have been arguing in our favour, and the other countries have been awaiting the outcome before deciding what action to take. They may now take the new HMRC policy as an indication that they do not feel able to continue to defend the case at the Commission and start taking enforcement action as well.

I got done for €800 by the Netherlands customs and only got my money back after screaming like a mashed cat!

 

[Gwylan]

Easy solution?

There is no short term solution for those of us who use little fuel. A tank will last many months. The long term solution must be Marinas sell white, this will take time as their tanks are full of red as well. Commercial users can still get a rebate but I would hope boats do. Surely some of the duty is to fund road infrastructure and my boat does not have any wheels. The two points are, of course, separate. The colour of the fuel is one issue and it is that that is bugging one set of Civil (?) Servants and the duty paid bugs another set. The two dont talk of course?

My tank is 160 litres that can take best part of a season for me to use up.

Why not agree that if you are 'caught' with red diesel and do not have a receipt less than 12 months old then you are 'guilty' of an infringement in the prosecuting country.

What planet are the people on who think that anyone can sign a declaration saying that they will not use red diesel outside UK territorial waters. Knowing that it is practically impossible for boats to avoid breaking this agreement.

After over 20 years experience gained living there, this seems a very Belgian solution.

 

[No Regrets]

Not everybody takes their boats out of UK waters.

most don't...

 

[maby]

Not everybody takes their boats out of UK waters.

most don't...

Sooner or later, the EU is going to insist that we are banned from using red diesel - their intention is that no "private pleasure craft" shall benefit from a tax rebate on fuel - explicitly stated in COUNCIL DIRECTIVE 2003/96/EC

and

"1. Without prejudice to national provisions on fiscal marking, Member States shall apply a fiscal marker in accordance with the provisions of this Directive to:
- all gas oil falling within CN code 2710 00 69 which has been released for consumption within the meaning of Article 6 of Directive 92/12/EEC and has been exempt from, or subject to, excise duty at a rate other than that laid down in Article 5 (1) of Directive 92/82/EEC;" Council Directive 95/60/EC


The wording of these directives is a bit sloppy, as is often the case with legislation, and the RYA have spent the last several years arguing around the wording rather than the intent, ignoring the fact that the EU will eventually get its way, even if that means that they will have to tighten up the wording.

There were several countries that were caught up in this - Belgium included. The Commission gave us all several years grace to sort out the implications by arranging alternative fuel supplies and everyone apart from us did it. HMRC are currently agreeing with the RYA interpretation, but their recent announcement seems to indicate that they are no longer confident that they can defend it. If we do not start to make arrangements to switch to white diesel now, the time will come when, without warning, we can no longer buy any fuel at all at the waterside. At that point, life will become a whole lot more difficult for all of us, even those with no wish to go abroad.

 

[No Regrets]

Why do you suppose we won't be able to buy Diesel waterside then?

 

[bradtarga34]

What a shambles this is turning out to be. Surely presenting an invoice from the fill up point showing that you have fully paid fuel for propulsion should be sufficient, regardless of the fact that it is red should be sufficient? I can't see why this is becoming such an issue, apart from this pesky Belgians... It's not as though we are using discounted fuel for propulsion, only for heating and power generation.

 

[jaws]

So why not go the whole hog and go back to 100% rebated diesel for use in uk waters. Scrap the 60/40 split nonsense.

 

[Lazy Days]

Why do you suppose we won't be able to buy Diesel waterside then?

Worst case outcome is that red will be banned for pleasure craft just as it is on the road. However, unlike on the road, commercial vessels will still be able to use red so the likelyhood is that rather than invest in a second diesel pump & tank etc for white diesel the fuel pontoons will just carry red for their high volume commercial customers. It's likely to be less of an issue on the Thames but certain places - the fuel barge in town for example and pumps on the non-tidal whose primary purpose is commercial refuelling like Hobbs in Henley will in all probability be red only.