JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Hmm. I have no doubt that modern engines work better, but I have doubts that they'll last as long. There are three Betas waiting to be scrapped in the pile outside my local boatyard, all recently removed.
Might as well re-engine now I guess?
- Thread starter Steve_N
- Start date
Hmm. I have no doubt that modern engines work better, but I have doubts that they'll last as long. There are three Betas waiting to be scrapped in the pile outside my local boatyard, all recently removed.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Well, I guess they will join all the hundreds of other old engines - Volvos, Bukhs, Thorneycrofts etc that have been scrapped and replaced after 30 or so years use. And don't forget your own Yanmar that had serious trouble at a young age.
Seriously - the typical life of a yacht auxilliary is 30-35 years, whether it is a dedicated "marine" engine or based on an industrial unit and they almost always die from lack of proper use, maintenance or neglect rather than wearing out. Betas have been around for nearly 30 years now, so not surprising some are getting near replacement time.
PCUK
Well-Known Member
Get a grip boy!
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
I had to fit a new cylinder head after 27 years. I wouldn't class that as either "serious trouble" or "a young age" though if the reading of 1150 hours is right - who knows - it's certainly not old. The intermittent high oil usage is still an issue, I grant you.
On the other hand, the 1GM10 is not a heavy old thumper like elderly Volvos, Bukh, Sabbs and the like. As I said, I have no doubt that modern marine diesels work well, but compared to the older generation they are much more lightly built in all respects. That's one of their advantages, but I would not expect them to last anything like as well as the antiques.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Why not look for a good secondhand one, from someone in your position whose nerve goes first? That'll cost about 10% of a new replacement and give you a supply of spare, or even a whole "new" engine to drop into the same fittings if you need to.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
There is no such thing as a "good" secondhand MD21B. That is the problem with these ancient engines - they are so obsolete spares are very difficult and expensive to get so owners like the OP keep them running as long as possible until they are uneconomical to repair and need replacing. Nobody crashes and writes off a boat with a good engine - so where is one going to come from?
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Why should "lightly built" have anything to do with it? Your Yanmar and indeed all the little Yanmars are "lightly built" - that is why they took the market from the old thumpers and have lasted very well, and why Volvo followed them down that route as quickly as they could. The Volvo that I have was first introduced 30 years ago and there is no sign that they are any less durable than the thumpers. The basic engines will last at least 8000 hours - 50 years average use in a yacht, but in heavy use will run way over that life - double is quite common in boats like the flotilla lead boats. My engine did 3500 hours in 7 years with not a moment's trouble apart from a blown head gasket replaced under warranty, and still runs just as it did when new. Secret is to use it hard, change oil and filters regularly and keep the exhaust clear. The 100-150 hours a year of short runs at irregular intervals typical of yacht use in the UK is what kills engines.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
The OP is being urged to ditch one which is running fine apart from a small oil leak. For a 35 year old engine, that's pretty good.
Indeed, which is why a modern lightweight may not be a long lasting choice. Less to rust away. Look at the number of 30 or 40 year old Seagulls around - how many 30 or 40 year old Yamaha outboards are still in use?
cliff
Well-Known Member
sadlerbob
Well-Known Member
Just ask yourself a few questions.
Do you wish to refurbish the old engine?
You are not worried about possible further oil leaks/ancillary breakdown problems associated with an old engine?
You wish to save money.?
Do you want a trouble free motoring on a new engine?
Do you wish to have peace of mind every time you go out?
Can I afford a new engine?
Decide from those questions really the choice is yours.
Only here once.
Do you wish to refurbish the old engine?
You are not worried about possible further oil leaks/ancillary breakdown problems associated with an old engine?
You wish to save money.?
Do you want a trouble free motoring on a new engine?
Do you wish to have peace of mind every time you go out?
Can I afford a new engine?
Decide from those questions really the choice is yours.
Only here once.
ghostlymoron
Well-Known Member
The big problem with old engines (I've got a VP MD1) is not that some spares are DIFFICULT to obtain but that they are UNOBTAINABLE unless you come across a cache of spares lying in a shed. Some gaskets are available from specialist suppliers but head gaskets for instance don't seem to be available anywhere at any price so any kind of overhaul is impossible.
You've got to view an engine as consumable after a certain age. If you're happy with your boat and have the money, swap it. You'll soon get over the financial pain.
You've got to view an engine as consumable after a certain age. If you're happy with your boat and have the money, swap it. You'll soon get over the financial pain.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Read the OP again. Rear crank oil seal. Engine out job - £1500 labour before you even start talking it apart and finding all the other things that are worn out. Circulation pump - £400 plus labour. Get it all back together and you still have a 30 plus year old engine that when it goes wrong again will land you with another big bill.
if you want to spend your retirement years sailing rather than fixing old worn out engines then blowing part of your pension on a new engine rather than a cruise or a Lamborghini makes a lot of sense.
BTW rust in a modern boat with dry bilges is a thing of the past. Not a spot of rust on my Volvo after 14 years. Think you are still imagining leaky old boats with festering oily water in the bilges.
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JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Fifteen hundred pounds to take out a small marine diesel and change the rear oil seal. Who are you employing to do it - Jeremy Clarkson?
On a slightly more serious note, there are, as others have pointed out, many factors which would influence the answer to this question. One is whether the OP is able to do the relatively small amount of work involved himself - if indeed he feels like doing it at all. One is whether he has eight grand handy and another is whether using it to replace a dripping oil seal and vague sense of foreboding will give the most pleasurable return on his investment.
I would not presume to suggest that my answers to such questions should apply to everyone else.
Steve_N
Well-Known Member
Thanks for all the suggestions so far, folks.
Getting the engine out won't be a simple task. Off the top of my head it'll involve removal of the steering pedestal, autopilot motor drive, cockpit floor (which may need some interior woodwork removing first), both Eberspachers, the calorifier, the gearbox and Aquadrive. Perhaps more.
So it has to be a once in a lifetime in/out operation which effectively rules out putting back both a rebuilt and obsolete 32 year old engine and a secondhand engine, unless the latter was really low hours and of guaranteed provenance. Someone suggested the Bukh 36s that are available on the web and have been taken out of lifeboats due to age but are basically unused. They would have been worth considering but are too small really.
One of the Chinese engines? I've nothing against them but if I do the job where we are now then it would be more diffiicult as I'd be on my own and couldn't expect the help of the local engineer, borrowing the occasional tool, lifts from the cherry picker for this and that, without paying up each time. It would just be much more complicated plus personally I would feel less confident of never having to repeat the job.
So the red devil is looking favourite to me. The Beta 50 looks good and costs only £300 or so more than the 43 from what I can gather.
There's still plenty of time to look around though but I will have a chat with the boatyard about the Beta next time I'm over that way.
Getting the engine out won't be a simple task. Off the top of my head it'll involve removal of the steering pedestal, autopilot motor drive, cockpit floor (which may need some interior woodwork removing first), both Eberspachers, the calorifier, the gearbox and Aquadrive. Perhaps more.
So it has to be a once in a lifetime in/out operation which effectively rules out putting back both a rebuilt and obsolete 32 year old engine and a secondhand engine, unless the latter was really low hours and of guaranteed provenance. Someone suggested the Bukh 36s that are available on the web and have been taken out of lifeboats due to age but are basically unused. They would have been worth considering but are too small really.
One of the Chinese engines? I've nothing against them but if I do the job where we are now then it would be more diffiicult as I'd be on my own and couldn't expect the help of the local engineer, borrowing the occasional tool, lifts from the cherry picker for this and that, without paying up each time. It would just be much more complicated plus personally I would feel less confident of never having to repeat the job.
So the red devil is looking favourite to me. The Beta 50 looks good and costs only £300 or so more than the 43 from what I can gather.
There's still plenty of time to look around though but I will have a chat with the boatyard about the Beta next time I'm over that way.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Think the owner of the boat has explained in detail why I suggested £1500. This is not a "small marine diesel" like your 1GM (one of which I have removed single handed in the past) - but a whopping great lump well buried in the boat with little thought as to how it could be removed in the future. Bloke who designed it is probably now looking down (or up) at the poor owners 30 years on and faced with the problem.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
In that case I would certainly not even think about a rebuild of the current one. When it comes out, it only makes sense to put a new one back. Do remember, though, that as Tranona has said, modern engines are designed to work in nice dry modern boats. How wet's your bilge?
ianj99
Well-Known Member
Yes, twas my thread and I can vouch for the 46bhp engine I bought from Marine Power. Can't comment at this stage on reliability of course as its only done 25hours but I achieved all my objectives* for about £3k (the old 4108 was sold for £700 which helped keep the cost down and I retained the PRM150 gearbox so that was another saving).
* new engine with more power, less noise (much less after fitting an airbox to the intake), instant starting even without any cold start device but I did drop a clanger by not fitting stiffer engine mounts to the heavy end. It's hard to see what possible benefit there would have been by spending three times as much on a well know brand...
Steve_N
Well-Known Member
Dry enough I would think. I still have a traditional stern gland that's drips in use and this water collects at the lowest point of the bilge under the reverse gear, but it is always pumped dry at the end of the day and never left wet.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Doesn't sound like an issue, then. Good luck with the decision and, if you go that way, the surgery.
Concerto
Well-Known Member
Whilst the engine is out then I would fit a new stern gland. Little extra money and less moisture in the bilge.