Midships Owner's Cabin - Most valued "extra" features. Opinions welcome

[jrudge]

Late to the party on this bed debate!

I suppose its important to remember what a cabin is for - sleeping and storage.

We have a 65 ft boat and it makes no difference- you don't spend time in it. The only time it is used other than sleeping is for the kids to watch TV if we are running and it is rough as it is the calmest place on the boat. So in my view forget all but the basics - especially if room is tight.

I assume this is a "new" design so if this is to be the master then don't compromise on a decent bed you can get to. Fairline with the new t53 decided to compromise ( ironically the ad line is without compromise) so you need to crawl into bed under a low ceiling.

This is camping not luxury and it will just come back to bite you in the ass. If you need to move bits about - espec on a new design - just accept that.

No one wants to crawl in to bed. My first boat had plenty of crawling and I would never do it again. When you spend what £500k+ you don't want to crawl into bed!

The designers will kick up a fuss. I was in software and this is designed just like a boat - the bits fit together, change one thing and many bits will change. People wine like hell but if you are the guy paying for it and the guy who must make sure is sells just rise above it.

The choice real is a review that says " nice boat, master is Ok but you have to crawl into bed" or " nice boat and what they did with the master in the space available was amazing"

To echo other I would also caution against the multi purpose stuff unless is is extremely simple to convert from A - B and genuinely very clever. Put the effort into getting it right. Comfort, storage and then the environment - i.e. lighting and heat - and convenience - phone charging / tv.

Just my view of course.

 

[Hugin]

Now, aside from the fact that I can't remember among any of them a master cabin without a walk around bed, I can assure you that the lack of it would have been one of the very few show stoppers, at least for my wife

Fair enough; we have identified your wife's personal show stopper.

Otoh, even assuming that you personally (and possibly many others) can accept a non-walkaround bed, do tell, honestly: looking at the master cabin layout of the N43, of the Beneteau, and of your drawing, which is your ranking?

The N43 is a different kettle of fish; almost 3 times the displacement and everything about the boat is focused on making life aboard comfortable for a couple, so it's a bit like comparing trunk capacity in a Mazda MX-5 and a Ford Transit.

I don't particularly like the Beneteau. Yes, it has a center line walk around bed and in that respect it is preferable, but you enter from a high level and steps down into some kind of "pit" at the foot end of the bed before stepping up to the higher level along the sides of the bed, which don't have full standing height either, BTW.
But that is not my main objection, of course...... the unsolvable problem in this case is that the full-beam section of the hull clearly is more than 3 meters long on the Beneteau....... whereas on my layout the full beam section only occupies 2.0-2.1 meters of hull length. That's a hell of a difference and there is just nowhere to find that extra meter of full beam length..... well, we could of course - but then we are conceptualizing a completely different type of boat. In my view we are comparing oranges and apples - AOTBE doesn't apply because the available space depends on what else the boat has to offer.

I can assure you that your criticism doesn't fall on deaf ears. I am already considering the same set up as on the V39 and "cutting" 15-20 cm off the corner of the Head will also improve access to the bed as well as the general feel of spaciousness. I've also started some more research into the exact size and shape of walk around beds in general. A brief look reveals that Princess offers "square beds", almost everyone else uses cut corners and/or "rounded" foot ends to the extent that sometimes the bed is more round than square.

 

[jrudge]

Just a thorough about making the cabin "longer".

Airline flat beds often have your feet disappearing into a hole which is actually the other persons seat.

No I don't have a plan with this suggestion, but using some thinking like this might make the cabin "bigger" depending of course where you find the space.

If it is a new design boat then of course you can always make the ER smaller ( Pearl use IPS on their 65 to do just that) or the saloon smaller ( or whatever is the other side of the bulkhead). Its about compromise and what you want to sell the boat on. Mid ships master cabin - fine - but then make it a good one.

Another alternative is to dump the second heads and put jack and jill doors to the day head. Something has to give. Speaking personally I don't really see 2 heads is required in a 2 cabin boat that most of the time will probably only have 1 couple on it.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

I've also started some more research into the exact size and shape of walk around beds in general. A brief look reveals that Princess offers "square beds", almost everyone else uses cut corners and/or "rounded" foot ends to the extend that sometimes the bed is more round than square.

Whilst I'd accept that this wouldn't be on the radar of most first-time owners, for any experienced owner then enabling the use of standard-sized (ie not round- or cut-cornered) mattresses is a definite advantage. If you have 2.1m of full beam hull length then it does seem like you have room for a 5ft mattress with a little bit of space on each side. In pursuit of your research I just consulted swmbo about this and she concurs that a 30cm gap on both sides of the bed would be preferable to 60cm on one side and being trapped against the wall on the other.

 

[jfm]

Must say I'm struggling to see "definite advantage" of using an exactly standard john lewis sized mattress. It can't be cost because we are talking about a 400+ k boat

Yes as regards 2.1m= enough for proper set up. I think the phantom 48 cabin was about 2.1-2.2m long in the bed zone

 

[Hugin]

hugin, I'm worried that you are applying to much of a practicality test, whereas what really matters is whether the customer will like it (or love it, given the way price for a boat like this is 3x nice Ferraris)

I appreciate the concern and I'm well aware that ultimately the boat will need to appeal to potential buyers' emotions as well as imaginations. I don't know how much a nice Ferrari is in your neck of the woods, but price wise I hope to be in Jeanneau Velasco 43 territory depending on equipment level. This is where segments of the middle class can still play.

More generally, your non walk around bed and the multiple angles and ceiling heights are just not going to look good. When you lie in bed and look across you just see the wall of the ensuite, urgh.

I don't think owners of Princess V39s in general are appalled by what they see from their bed (the side of a cabinet among other things), and the impression will be very similar with my layout. If the extra ceiling height is an eye sore then it will be very easy to reassign it as extra storage space accessible from the deck above.

IMHO enough people will fail to love the boat to materially hurt sales, despite its practicalities and storage.

The USPs for this boat - and there are several weighty ones - lies elsewhere than the Master Cabin, let alone its bed. I'll have to consult my business partner before I can initiate a discussion of them, but rest assured this forum will get first opportunity to criticize it all to death

The Beneteau shown above is way better. The bed is walkaround and on fore-aft centreline.

My reply to MapisM above explains why it's a non-starter. Lack of space; different concept altogether involving a complete redesign of....... well, basically everything :ambivalence:

 

[Portofino]

2nd + time buyers know what they don,t want ,or what needs improving

Here we have a full " John Lewis spec " mattress -with generous access equal both sides -plenty of storage under draws .You climb up into bed from the front or step up / off from sides .
Wooden floor - easy maintenance .No curtains -metal cupolas that fit tight and a sliding cover for the skylight -total darkness if you want that .Silent central chiller Aircon too with hand reachable bedside control .
Crucially over 1 -M INFRONT of the bed so both can turn and get dressed .
Jack / Jill door to day heads .
As others have said a good nights kip is important -mood wise on a boat
How ever a safe place to day kip while on the move with built in head rest + part shade over head is also usefull , so,s sun does not wake you up either .

 

[Nigelpickin]

Must say I'm struggling to see "definite advantage" of using an exactly standard john lewis sized mattress. It can't be cost because we are talking about a 400+ k boat

Yes as regards 2.1m= enough for proper set up. I think the phantom 48 cabin was about 2.1-2.2m long in the bed zone

I think it's that you can then use John Lewis bedding and so on. We use hired lined and again, with rounded corners the mattress protectors are a pain even if they are bespoke they don't grip without the right angle.

Worse still is the way square bedding hangs from a mattress with rounded corners, just grates on my mind to think about it


I get the point that the value of the boat would imply that bespoke bedding would be a small consideration but after having it made for all our beds on our previous boat, which we kept for 16 months, it becomes rather more of a time and cost overhead.
ps I thoroughly recommend the hired linen solution to anyone within range of a supplier, V convenient and V good value when compared to stocking and maintaining you own linen. fwiw.

 

[jfm]

I think it's that you can then use John Lewis bedding and so on. We use hired lined and again, with rounded corners the mattress protectors are a pain even if they are bespoke they don't grip without the right angle.

Worse still is the way square bedding hangs from a mattress with rounded corners, just grates on my mind to think about it


I get the point that the value of the boat would imply that bespoke bedding would be a small consideration but after having it made for all our beds on our previous boat, which we kept for 16 months, it becomes rather more of a time and cost overhead.
ps I thoroughly recommend the hired linen solution to anyone within range of a supplier, V convenient and V good value when compared to stocking and maintaining you own linen. fwiw.

Well I don't want to get anto a massive linny debate Nigel so I promise this will be my last post (maybe!), but my thoughts are:
1. Never had a problem with curved corner mattresses and custom fitted sheets/protectors. Possibly because I don't make the beds, mind Admittedly current boat has square corners or v small radii
2. Hired sounds awful! Will be crispy 100 thread count stuff, used in a travelodge on the M5 the night before, yuk! Heirlooms is what you want, and they measure/make/install so there is no time overhead
3. totally agree square bedding drooping from rounded corners looks awful, but solution is custom curved bedding for big curves, obviously not needed for tight curves, and in general it is traditional on yachts to tuck the bedding in behind a rail as can be seen in most nice yacht interior pictures on the web and eg this:

 

[Hugin]

No I don't have a plan with this suggestion, but using some thinking like this might make the cabin "bigger" depending of course where you find the space.

As you can see the jury wants walk around beds, so tugging the foot end under something probably wont go down well with the majority here.

If it is a new design boat then of course you can always make the ER smaller ( Pearl use IPS on their 65 to do just that) or the saloon smaller ( or whatever is the other side of the bulkhead). Its about compromise and what you want to sell the boat on. Mid ships master cabin - fine - but then make it a good one.

ER already optimized; going further down in size will impede serviceability and that will not go down well with the majority of the jury either. And IPS will not be allowed near the ER of this boat.

Another alternative is to dump the second heads and put jack and jill doors to the day head. Something has to give. Speaking personally I don't really see 2 heads is required in a 2 cabin boat that most of the time will probably only have 1 couple on it.

What makes you think it's a 2 cabin design?

I think much of the criticism I have received so far is based on the assumption this design is targeted towards a couple boating alone most of the time...... and another couple occasionally invited aboard. There are plenty of boats targeting precisely this market segment - probably around 80-90% of all models - so what would be the point joining all the other hopefuls with a virtually identical product? The market is already over-saturated with boats targeting the lone couple!

Alternative market segments: Charter market. Informal boat sharing (e.g. two families boating together). The 3-generation family. The socially outgoing couple (inviting everyone). Formal boat-sharing (time-share systems). Mixed recreational and representative use (large entertaining area an advantage).
I'm not excluding the lone couple as the boat will have unique features, which could win over also some from that segment; it is just not the segment we primarily develop the boat for. In regards to the lone couple we would actually love to "kick" their imagination into a higher gear with a boat, which obviously provides new possibilities. Just imagine what you could also do if your boat had............??

To tickle your interest a little..... no, it is not a 2 cabin design

 

[MapisM]

Fair enough; we have identified your wife's personal show stopper.

Well, I was replying to your statement about being a show stopper ONLY for people who already owned larger boats.
Besides, if this thread itself is anything to go by, it seems that my wife is not the only person on this planet who thinks along those lines.
That said, you are fully entitled to think that it will not matter to whoever should be interested in the boat, of course - all the best for that! :encouragement:

 

[jfm]

I don't think owners of Princess V39s in general are appalled by what they see from their bed (the side of a cabinet among other things), and the impression will be very similar with my layout. If the extra ceiling height is an eye sore then it will be very easy to reassign it as extra storage space accessible from the deck above.

Your updown ceiling feels much more random (= ugly) than others, more random if less intrusive than even the phantom 48. In particular the chunk of low ceiling that is formed by the corridor above will look very bad imho, seriously ugly I mean, and should be designed out. I'd be looking at offset staircase, eg Squadron 52 and the beneteau above, but it's hard to comment obviously based just on your sketch.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Must say I'm struggling to see "definite advantage" of using an exactly standard john lewis sized mattress. It can't be cost because we are talking about a 400+ k boat

Yes as regards 2.1m= enough for proper set up. I think the phantom 48 cabin was about 2.1-2.2m long in the bed zone

Tee-hee, sorry for nerdiness. I spose my position is informed by the fact that I've done six seasons with my boat, and I'm on my third mattress. The foam mattress supplied as oe with my sort of boat is just junk, esp if you're on the boat a lot (which I am, since you persuaded me down to SoF) and organising bespoke mattresses and bedding etc is a proper pita. A decent mattress on the boat (both in terms of form and function) is key to decent sleep which in turn just makes for a better time on board, and the easiest way to get a decent mattress is to be able to buy one from the same supplier you use for your house. All imho of course.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

I don't think owners of Princess V39s in general are appalled by what they see from their bed (the side of a cabinet among other things), and the impression will be very similar with my layout. If the extra ceiling height is an eye sore then it will be very easy to reassign it as extra storage space accessible from the deck above.

Yeah but as we keep saying (and you keep disregarding, it seems) the owners of Princess V39s won't be in the blimmin mid cabin, they'll be in the owners cabin which is the forward cabin.

 

[Nigelpickin]

Well I don't want to get anto a massive linny debate Nigel so I promise this will be my last post (maybe!), but my thoughts are:
1. Never had a problem with curved corner mattresses and custom fitted sheets/protectors. Possibly because I don't make the beds, mind Admittedly current boat has square corners or v small radii
2. Hired sounds awful! Will be crispy 100 thread count stuff, used in a travelodge on the M5 the night before, yuk! Heirlooms is what you want, and they measure/make/install so there is no time overhead
3. totally agree square bedding drooping from rounded corners looks awful, but solution is custom curved bedding for big curves, obviously not needed for tight curves, and in general it is traditional on yachts to tuck the bedding in behind a rail as can be seen in most nice yacht interior pictures on the web and eg this:

Noooo lovely 400 Egyptian with not a hint of starch...more Scarlet/Tresanton than Travel Lodge.

I think we pay around £20 a week for the super King set, bath mats and towels...the strain on our poxy Candy w/dryer would make on board laundering a non starter.

We will need to find a new solution next year tho'.

Man that's a nice boat.....

 

[jrudge]

You seem to labour on the word critism. It's just comment to ( in our view) make it better which is what you asked for !

So this is a 3 cabin boat. Tough given its size but let's see how it goes.

We sleep 10. The number of people in it range from 5 to 10

Boats owners in my view have as many on board as is comfortable. To me a 43 foot ( I think not scrolled up) boat is good for 2 adults and 2 kids for any length of time. Our 4o we slept up 7 but not for more than a night.

The assumption is based on size and comfort given the size on the boat.

You said you would have to re design everything. Think about that. At this stage it just costs time. Once built you are into moulds etc and to mods cost will be huge. Back to software. We trashed a years work. It was not going where we wanted it to so we canned it and started again. Tough. Sure but no where near as tough as a product that won't sell

 

[Nigelpickin]

Well, I was replying to your statement about being a show stopper ONLY for people who already owned larger boats.
Besides, if this thread itself is anything to go by, it seems that my wife is not the only person on this planet who thinks along those lines.
That said, you are fully entitled to think that it will not matter to whoever should be interested in the boat, of course - all the best for that! :encouragement:

It's interesting that Prestige have deployed a compromised athwart ships master in their new 420 & 450 models, albeit with their brand selling point of separate staircase. I get the sense from a couple of conversations that I've had that they are struggling to find a market for these compared to say the 500 or 550. Having been on board both models, I have to say that they do feel a little as though they are trying to make a unique selling point at any cost. But...I am certain that I would feel differently about both of those boats if I were either new to the market and looking at the $350k - $450k strata and comparing with a GT, Princess, Azi or Bavaria, (seems strange not citing FL ) or if I were trading up from a 35' boat as I was when we bought our Prestige 390 a few years ago.

Its not easy being objective about a 40' boat in which compromises must be made when you are lording it up in a 50' 60' or 70'er.

So I guess that I have empathy with many of the things that have been said but I believe inovation and diferrentials drive this part of the market and that quality and zero compromise drive the stuff at the larger end. So clever beds, modular furniture, uppy downy inny outy tables and stools and even televators will be what stay in the mind of the punter after the show...even if the realitly is that the kids or mates will be using the full beam cabin in the long run.

At the risk of making the same point twice, if the OP and his colleagues nail the foward cabin then surely a second 'master' cabin in the middle of the boat is a huge boon and we are missing the point?

edit. Oh Ive just read the post above, three cabins?.....

 

[jfm]

Noooo lovely 400 Egyptian with not a hint of starch...more Scarlet/Tresanton than Travel Lodge.

I think we pay around £20 a week for the super King set, bath mats and towels...

Fair enough to all that - it does indeed sound excellent value and I get your point that doing laundry on board whether self or crew is difficult unless there is full gear ie sep washing m/c, outside vented t/drier, ironing machine. Alas I think that bargain £20 would be €200 in some places in high season, erk!
Thanks for the boaty comment

 

[Hugin]

You seem to labour on the word criticism. It's just comment to ( in our view) make it better which is what you asked for !

Yes, I'm seeking constructive criticism and I can assure you that I have today both amended design details as well as started a thought process regarding some of the issues discussed.

However, I do not think it is very constructive to suggest I take a clean sheet and design a completely different boat. A long thought process lies before today's comments and the concept as it stands is founded on a list of clearly defined design parameters. IOW, we know what we want to achieve and we won't achieve half of it if we start from scratch and build the boat up around the ideal Master Cabin, which seems to be what I am advised to do. If we did that we'd end up with more or less what is already abundantly available.

This all started out as a much more limited discussion of some relatively minor design choices and quickly escalated to cover the entire layout..... in fact the entire concept. I was not completely prepared for that, but I do find the discussion have merits insofar it stimulates further thought, so I would like to continue down that route. I therefore think the best approach is that I confer with my business partner to agree how much and in what format we can reveal details at this stage. Then I can present a more complete "picture" of the boat concept as the context for constructive criticism or comments.

 

[jfm]

This all started out as a much more limited discussion of some relatively minor design choices and quickly escalated to cover the entire layout..... in fact the entire concept.

Fair comment!:encouragement: Forums eh? This one in particular! Best of luck with the project