Med tax position since Jan 2022 on UK VAT paid boat

[truro expat]

I am not sure if anyone else has heard this but my guy who looks after my boat in Italy had a visit from the Italian customs who have said that all UK boats must leave Italy by 1st June this year?
My boat is UK VAT paid and been in the med for the last 6 years and I assumed that we could remain in the Med as VAT paid boat indefinitely?
Has anyone else heard of this?

 

[julians]

I think there is probably some crossed wires, if your boat was vat paid before the UK left the EU, and was in Italy when the UK left the EU, then it is classed as EU vat paid(regardless of where vat was actually paid when the UK was a member of the EU) and can stay in Italy indefinitely.

What they may be thinking of is an actual UK vat paid boat ,ie one that was in UK when UK left the EU, then they need to leave for a period of time or if they stay then they need to pay EU vat.

In your case you probably need evidence that your boat was in the EU when the UK left the EU,then you should be fine.

Your marine should be able to give you a letter saying the boat was on its mooring in Italy when the UK left the eu

 

[Hurricane]

I think there is probably some crossed wires, if your boat was vat paid before the UK left the EU, and was in Italy when the UK left the EU, then it is classed as EU vat paid(regardless of where vat was actually paid when the UK was a member of the EU) and can stay in Italy indefinitely.

What they may be thinking of is an actual UK vat paid boat ,ie one that was in UK when UK left the EU, then they need to leave for a period of time or if they stay then they need to pay EU vat.

In your case you probably need evidence that your boat was in the EU when the UK left the EU,then you should be fine.

Your marine should be able to give you a letter saying the boat was on its mooring in Italy when the UK left the eu

Agreed
The question that probably should be asked is "if it were a TV and it was in the EU on the 31st December 2020, would the TV need to leave the EU or have further VAT paid?
The answer of course is no.
A boat in the EU is just like a TV - it is EU "Goods"
So, I agree with you - this sounds wrong - maybe the Italian Customs guy needs an explanation.
Or, as with all this kind of stuff, "The Devil is in the Detail"

 

[petem]

@Portofino , back to York Marina for you and your Itama ?

 

[DAW]

I've heard that some of the capitaineries in the SoF have started to ask for confirmation of the VAT status of UK registered/owned vessels in their marinas ... evidence that the boat was UK VAT paid and physically in the EU on 31 December 2020, VAT was paid in an EU country when new, it's in EU waters under TA or it's registered and operating as commercial vessel.

I believe the TA process requires check-in/check-out and supporting documentation ... you can't just be in the EU for 18 months and come and go without documentation from the port of entry/port of exit confirming your date of arrival in and departure from the EU.

Last year, I was checked twice by customs in random inspections while at anchor, but I was never asked for evidence of VAT status when checking into a marina. As we will be 18 months from Brexit on 30 June 2022, I guess it is logical that there could be increased monitoring and frequency of checks this year.

 

[truro expat]

It was what I thought but if Italian Customs don't know the rules we risk have fines etc.
I have asked some legal boat people to give us a view but they want 2000 euros for the confirmation?

 

[julians]

It was what I thought but if Italian Customs don't know the rules we risk have fines etc.
I have asked some legal boat people to give us a view but they want 2000 euros for the confirmation?

You dont need to ask the legal people , there are many articles describing this on the web from various sources, for example

VAT and customs clarification for recreational boaters - Practical Boat Owner (pbo.co.uk)

You do need to be clear on terminology when describing your boats status - I suspect the confusion is coming about because (in your post above - and maybe in your dealing with others in the marina? ) you are describing your boat as UK VAT paid, If it were UK VAT paid then you would indeed need to get it out of the EU by end of June 22 (18 months after the uk left the eu) or face paying EU VAT on it. But your boat is actually EU VAT paid now - because it was in the EU when the uk left the EU.

 

[Hurricane]

You dont need to ask the legal people , there are many articles describing this on the web from various sources, for example

VAT and customs clarification for recreational boaters - Practical Boat Owner (pbo.co.uk)

You do need to be clear on terminology when describing your boats status - I suspect the confusion is coming about because (in your post above - and maybe in your dealing with others in the marina? ) you are describing your boat as UK VAT paid, If it were UK VAT paid then you would indeed need to get it out of the EU by end of June 22 (18 months after the uk left the eu) or face paying EU VAT on it. But your boat is actually EU VAT paid now - because it was in the EU when the uk left the EU.

Thats a good point
Maybe those people in that category should always state EU paid VAT and then provide the supporting evidence (the original VAT Invoice and proof that the boat was in the EU on the 31st Dec 2020).
That way, as you say, UK VAT won't come into the conversation.

@truro expat
I agree with julians - I think it is dangerous to ask these (so called) legal people for advice.
We have had this kind of thing on this forum for years now - you can't count on the legal profession knowing what they are talking about.
I remember one case where a, so called, legal specialist published absolute carp in a national boating magazine.
The best thing to do is, as julians, says, Google around and make your own assessment.
This forum is generally very good at this kind of thing so you are asking your question in the correct place.

 

[Hurricane]

I've heard that some of the capitaineries in the SoF have started to ask for confirmation of the VAT status of UK registered/owned vessels in their marinas ... evidence that the boat was UK VAT paid and physically in the EU on 31 December 2020, VAT was paid in an EU country when new, it's in EU waters under TA or it's registered and operating as commercial vessel.

I believe the TA process requires check-in/check-out and supporting documentation ... you can't just be in the EU for 18 months and come and go without documentation from the port of entry/port of exit confirming your date of arrival in and departure from the EU.

Last year, I was checked twice by customs in random inspections while at anchor, but I was never asked for evidence of VAT status when checking into a marina. As we will be 18 months from Brexit on 30 June 2022, I guess it is logical that there could be increased monitoring and frequency of checks this year.

A friend of mine bought a new boat (in the UK without paying VAT) last year and is using the TA scheme.
You are quite correct - the process for a non VAT paid boat is to clear customs properly when it first enters the EU.
In the case of Spain, this usually cannot be done in a marina.
In our part of Spain, I think my friend "cleared in" in Valencia but if he had gone directly to our marina in Sant Carles, he would have had to "clear in" in Tarragona (a 50 mile road trip from the marina).
I am not sure of the TA resetting process - he may have to "clear out" from the EU first and then "clear in" to a non EU country before going through the process again.
The terms "clear in" and "clear out" are my terms but the process was described to me by a reliable Spanish source in our marina.

 

[Tranona]

It was what I thought but if Italian Customs don't know the rules we risk have fines etc.
I have asked some legal boat people to give us a view but they want 2000 euros for the confirmation?

Suggest you contact the Cruising Association as they know how to deal with the Commission if local customs are not implementing TU rules correctly. They have already done this successfully in Greece and Croatia where local "interpretation" was wrong and has now been corrected.

 

[petem]

You do need to be clear on terminology when describing your boats status - I suspect the confusion is coming about because (in your post above - and maybe in your dealing with others in the marina? ) you are describing your boat as UK VAT paid, If it were UK VAT paid then you would indeed need to get it out of the EU by end of June 22 (18 months after the uk left the eu) or face paying EU VAT on it. But your boat is actually EU VAT paid now - because it was in the EU when the uk left the EU.

Excellent answer.

As others have said, a letter form the marina certifying that the boat was in the EU on the 31/12/2001 would be helpful as would the marina invoices preceding that date.

I also have a stamped T2L declaring that our boat is EU VAT Paid.

 

[benjenbav]

Sounds a bit like, “Look after your car for a tenner, mister”

Apart from anything else, wouldn’t 18 months be up on 30 June 2022 rather than as stated?

 

[DAW]

A friend of mine bought a new boat (in the UK without paying VAT) last year and is using the TA scheme.
You are quite correct - the process for a non VAT paid boat is to clear customs properly when it first enters the EU.
In the case of Spain, this usually cannot be done in a marina.
In our part of Spain, I think my friend "cleared in" in Valencia but if he had gone directly to our marina in Sant Carles, he would have had to "clear in" in Tarragona (a 50 mile road trip from the marina).
I am not sure of the TA resetting process - he may have to "clear out" from the EU first and then "clear in" to a non EU country before going through the process again.
The terms "clear in" and "clear out" are my terms but the process was described to me by a reliable Spanish source in our marina.

This is consistent with what I've heard and been told about temporary admission when using France or Monaco as the point of entry into the EU. The TA procedure has to be completed with the tax authorities, which involves dealing with an office which is not local to the marina and is best done with the help of an experienced agent. It's not possible to do it with the marina staff.

 

[Bouba]

I think that you need to go to the Italian Government website and download the relevant rules in Italian. Have that with your documentation (translated into Italian) on hand at all times

 

[Portofino]

@pete , my boat has documented Italian tax ( vat eq ) paid paper trail .It’s on Gardia Finanza system as such .
Been “ done twice by the GF and given the ok twice .2014 and 2020 .
Just happens to fly a red ensign, but it’s flag is irrelevant as we all know .

An explanation to the ops post #1 is either a mix up from the guardian in a Chinese message pov .But only 1-2 moves from GF to guardian to Op .

Or he is right in this sense .
The date this June being 18 months on from the B word and the forum photos on 31/12/2020 .
Maybe the “ in the EU / pic malarkey “ for U.K. boats brought in like Hurricanes and Petes for eg and the OP s meant no vat was instantly payable you have just crossed lines into the TI column unknowingly.Brussels have simply just re written it all in there favour l
If so when the 18 m s is up the VAT is due ?

This explains it only if the Ops guardian got it correct from the GF and GF are right from latest blurb from Brussels .

So you are both ( the forum ) are right .No vat was payable in 1-1-21 or thereabouts on boats in the EU from the UK .
But what’s not been said disclosed or introduced since is that eventually you are aligned VAT wise with TI .
For your sakes hope not .

But why wouldn’t the EU rework it to re align you with TI ? ……ready for a June 22 cash cow milk ?

Britains not sat at the whip round table any more , there defence expense is gonna ballon , they are haemorrhaging €€€ dealing with the UA issue .

 

[Portofino]

You dont need to ask the legal people , there are many articles describing this on the web from various sources, for example

VAT and customs clarification for recreational boaters - Practical Boat Owner (pbo.co.uk)

You do need to be clear on terminology when describing your boats status - I suspect the confusion is coming about because (in your post above - and maybe in your dealing with others in the marina? ) you are describing your boat as UK VAT paid, If it were UK VAT paid then you would indeed need to get it out of the EU by end of June 22 (18 months after the uk left the eu) or face paying EU VAT on it. But your boat is actually EU VAT paid now - because it was in the EU when the uk left the EU.

But you only have a U.K. ( third party ) piece of paper .Hurricane from Priny for example .

I, will be blunt prove EU tax was paid in the EU .

They have had long enough to move goal posts .

 

[Tranona]

But you only have a U.K. ( third party ) piece of paper .Hurricane from Priny for example .

I, will be blunt prove EU tax was paid in the EU .

They have had long enough to move goal posts .

It is the Commission in Brussels that enforces the terms of the Withdrawal Agreement, not the individual states. If an individual state is not applying it correctly then there is a procedure with the Commission to put them tight. As I reported earlier the Cruising Association have already done this for Greece and Croatia. What is needed is evidence that local authorities are not acting correctly and use this to raise a complaint.
It is the Commission i br

 

[Portofino]

It was what I thought but if Italian Customs don't know the rules we risk have fines etc.
I have asked some legal boat people to give us a view but they want 2000 euros for the confirmation?

I think they do know the finer nuances.
As said 2020 blue lights flashing etc a van and car screeching to a halt .Gang of armed GF folks laptops in hand , came marching down the jetty .
We are no 4 btw .
About 4 pm hot n sunny we had just finished washing the boat down after a day out …..gin n T in hand .
I shot down below to get the file etc .
The sergeant , head honcho as walked towards the back file in hand said ….no you are ok .This is after looking at his lap top .
His buddy’s we’re all over the IT boats .
Spoke very good eng so ( I have mentioned this previously) I asked him why so many Italians are flying red ensigns ?
For those that don’t know a significant number in Italian fly reds .
The GF sergeant immediately with no hesitation in a calm voice said this “ it’s because the boats are owned by British banks , it’s perfectly legitimate “

So they understood that nuance .
They were not crucifying the IT owners owners over there finance arrangements, and all that that may entail .

As I said they may have been a miss understanding which every one hopes by the GF guy the Ops guardian but then again maybe not .

They the GF are used to slippery snakes wriggling about so I think they get well briefed not left in darkness so to speak .
Tax avoidance after all is there bag .

 

[Portofino]

It is the Commission in Brussels that enforces the terms of the Withdrawal Agreement, not the individual states. If an individual state is not applying it correctly then there is a procedure with the Commission to put them tight. As I reported earlier the Cruising Association have already done this for Greece and Croatia. What is needed is evidence that local authorities are not acting correctly and use this to raise a complaint.
It is the Commission i br

Yes that’s what I mean Brussels have re written it all and pinged the states .
Italy with its GF it’s professional tax dodger catchers are the first to sit up because the GF had infrastructure to react the quicker.

Or it’s a 1-2 or 1-2-3 with the Op Chinese message .It’s wrong after 1-2 moves .

 

[benjenbav]

...
They the GF are used to slippery snakes wriggling about so I think they get well briefed not left in darkness so to speak .
Tax avoidance after all is there bag .

Shouldn't they be more focused on tax evasion?