Mechanical engine gauges/alarms -> NMEA2K Options.

[vas]

Hi all,

since JFM was kind enough to donate a series of kit to my project boat, I have to find some data to show to all these GMI-10s.
Decided to use two of them on the f/b helm instead of the VDO tachos + 3 warning bulbs, making a much neater layout.

Problem is my IVECOs (8061SRM-33, 330hp) are mechanical units and hence no ECU or other way to get data off them.
OK, no problem other's taken care of this and we now have a few options all "stealing" data (voltage mainly) from the engine installed sensors (temp for oil/coolant, pressure for oil, air, tacho, etc) and via a black box convert them to NMEA2K messages that are broadcasted on the network and picked up from (in my case) GMI-10.

Managed to find 3 options which I'll explain next and I'd like to know if I'm missing something so that I can have a complete view before deciding on what I'll get.
Mind I'm NOT touching the fuel metering options that are tbh WAY TOO expensive with cheapest quality one is inxs 1K euro for ONE engine! (black box + 2X metering sensors) and I cannot justify the cost nor see it paying off anytime.
So options are:

Maretron
Unfortunately supporting ONLY certain Yanmar diesels via a plugin ECU or whatever socket. So out of the Q [that was easy!]

Actisense Engine Monitoring Unit [EMU-1]
+ Nice package, 6 gauges, 4 alarms, 2 tachos, 2 aux (not working yet), off the box support for VDO 12V and 24V gauges (that's what I have!)
- needs an extra usb/NMEA2K interface to program the box, current firmware WONT support 2 engines as yet, unless you have Faria, US Marine or VDO gauges things are getting difficult as it's not quite clear how you go on about setting them up (says contact them)
total cost comes up to around 500euro (ebay)

NoLand Engineering RS11 Canbus Engine Data Converter
+works off the box with 2X tacho, 4X gauges and 2 X 0-30V input (for alt volt most likely, but can be used for alarms or other gauges) and does support without anything else 2 engines. Programmed using built in usb port, config prog needs two values to accurately tune each gauge, easy to do assuming you DO have a gauge installed!
- 2+2 gauges/alarms less than the Actisense
On the plus we should also note that they cost 210euro for one, or 360euro for two == means that it's cheaper than the Actisense with even more sensing capabilities on the twin option (prices from their online shop). Frankly the single one should be sufficient.

Only thing that bothers me is that the 4Xgauges are 0-20V input so I need to check what my gauges output (boat is 24V but it's most likely a much smaller range per sensor)

Assuming I'm ok with the 0-20V output, I'll get one of them, install it on the bulkhead under the lower helm gauges and hook it up to the NMEA2K network that passes by.
So, anyone has another candidate or anything else to suggest?

cheers

V.

 

[Elessar]

Hi all,

since JFM was kind enough to donate a series of kit to my project boat, I have to find some data to show to all these GMI-10s.
Decided to use two of them on the f/b helm instead of the VDO tachos + 3 warning bulbs, making a much neater layout.

Problem is my IVECOs (8061SRM-33, 330hp) are mechanical units and hence no ECU or other way to get data off them.
OK, no problem other's taken care of this and we now have a few options all "stealing" data (voltage mainly) from the engine installed sensors (temp for oil/coolant, pressure for oil, air, tacho, etc) and via a black box convert them to NMEA2K messages that are broadcasted on the network and picked up from (in my case) GMI-10.

Managed to find 3 options which I'll explain next and I'd like to know if I'm missing something so that I can have a complete view before deciding on what I'll get.
Mind I'm NOT touching the fuel metering options that are tbh WAY TOO expensive with cheapest quality one is inxs 1K euro for ONE engine! (black box + 2X metering sensors) and I cannot justify the cost nor see it paying off anytime.
So options are:

Maretron
Unfortunately supporting ONLY certain Yanmar diesels via a plugin ECU or whatever socket. So out of the Q [that was easy!]

Actisense Engine Monitoring Unit [EMU-1]
+ Nice package, 6 gauges, 4 alarms, 2 tachos, 2 aux (not working yet), off the box support for VDO 12V and 24V gauges (that's what I have!)
- needs an extra usb/NMEA2K interface to program the box, current firmware WONT support 2 engines as yet, unless you have Faria, US Marine or VDO gauges things are getting difficult as it's not quite clear how you go on about setting them up (says contact them)
total cost comes up to around 500euro (ebay)

NoLand Engineering RS11 Canbus Engine Data Converter
+works off the box with 2X tacho, 4X gauges and 2 X 0-30V input (for alt volt most likely, but can be used for alarms or other gauges) and does support without anything else 2 engines. Programmed using built in usb port, config prog needs two values to accurately tune each gauge, easy to do assuming you DO have a gauge installed!
- 2+2 gauges/alarms less than the Actisense
On the plus we should also note that they cost 210euro for one, or 360euro for two == means that it's cheaper than the Actisense with even more sensing capabilities on the twin option (prices from their online shop). Frankly the single one should be sufficient.

Only thing that bothers me is that the 4Xgauges are 0-20V input so I need to check what my gauges output (boat is 24V but it's most likely a much smaller range per sensor)

Assuming I'm ok with the 0-20V output, I'll get one of them, install it on the bulkhead under the lower helm gauges and hook it up to the NMEA2K network that passes by.
So, anyone has another candidate or anything else to suggest?

cheers

V.

On the sealine forum there is an informative thread on fitting the Noland which goes into some detail, the guy owns a battery company so is quite techy too, he may be able to answer your questions. You'll have to register on the site to see it though.

 

[vas]

On the sealine forum there is an informative thread on fitting the Noland which goes into some detail, the guy owns a battery company so is quite techy too, he may be able to answer your questions. You'll have to register on the site to see it though.

great, thanks!

just registered (less than the advertised 20sec, well impressed!) found the threads, read it, seems that superheat also has installed it, reports are v.good, so as soon as I get a confirmation that signals on 24V gauges are still within the 0-20V range, I'll get one

cheers

V.

 

[superheat6k]

I installed mine last Winter so I could see the engine oil pressure and temps from the Flybridge, as I got fed up having to pop below to check the gauges. Also one of my Fly tachos over-reads, so I can display the RPM on the bar graph displays on my Garmin GPSMAP750, which makes syncing the engine speeds easy.

I had to install an NMEA 2k backbone, which was too easy, and I used the Garmin starter kit, which is true NMEA2K, unlike the Raymarine Seatalk version, which doesn't stick rigidly to the backbone system required of fully NMEA2k compliant systems.

I used the software provided by Noland to set it up, which included me guessing till i got it right how many teeth on the tacho sensed gear spur. I used a laser tacho to check this, and the computer report is digit accurate.

Since setting it up I haven't had to adjust anything. I check the engines every 15 minutes underway, and use the tacho bar displays to set my cruise speed. The Garmin also allows alarms to be set, e.g lo o/p or hi temp.

This little device has been used more than any other gadget aboard apart from the Garmin Plotter itself. I am thinking about a second RS11 to look at turbo boost and gearbox oil pressures.

I am sure you would be able to read your outputs without a problem. The RS11 doesn't 'load' the output being looked at. Unless you can get your PC very close to the Noland unit You will need a RS232 extension cable, without null crossover, and if your PC or Laptop doesn't have an RS232 port (not many do nowadays) an RS232 to USB Convertor.

Reference docs here ...

http://turbo36.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/noland-rs11kbroch.pdf

http://turbo36.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/noland-rs11k_1pg.pdf

 

[superheat6k]

great, thanks!

just registered (less than the advertised 20sec, well impressed!) found the threads, read it, seems that superheat also has installed it, reports are v.good, so as soon as I get a confirmation that signals on 24V gauges are still within the 0-20V range, I'll get one

cheers

V.

The manual says the RS11 is good for 12 & 24 v systems ...

"The RS11 is designed for versatile interfacing to almost any type of analog engine sensor or gauge commonly used on marine or automotive engines. It has two RPM (Tach) inputs, six analog(Gauge) inputs and supports both 12 and 24 volt systems. The analog inputs can all be assigned to one engine or split between two engines. Multiple RS11's can be installed on the same CANbus."

 

[Elessar]

I installed mine last Winter so I could see the engine oil pressure and temps from the Flybridge, as I got fed up having to pop below to check the gauges. Also one of my Fly tachos over-reads, so I can display the RPM on the bar graph displays on my Garmin GPSMAP750, which makes syncing the engine speeds easy.

I had to install an NMEA 2k backbone, which was too easy, and I used the Garmin starter kit, which is true NMEA2K, unlike the Raymarine Seatalk version, which doesn't stick rigidly to the backbone system required of fully NMEA2k compliant systems.

I used the software provided by Noland to set it up, which included me guessing till i got it right how many teeth on the tacho sensed gear spur. I used a laser tacho to check this, and the computer report is digit accurate.

Since setting it up I haven't had to adjust anything. I check the engines every 15 minutes underway, and use the tacho bar displays to set my cruise speed. The Garmin also allows alarms to be set, e.g lo o/p or hi temp.

This little device has been used more than any other gadget aboard apart from the Garmin Plotter itself. I am thinking about a second RS11 to look at turbo boost and gearbox oil pressures.

I am sure you would be able to read your outputs without a problem. The RS11 doesn't 'load' the output being looked at. Unless you can get your PC very close to the Noland unit You will need a RS232 extension cable, without null crossover, and if your PC or Laptop doesn't have an RS232 port (not many do nowadays) an RS232 to USB Convertor.

Reference docs here ...

http://turbo36.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/noland-rs11kbroch.pdf

http://turbo36.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/noland-rs11k_1pg.pdf

where did you buy them?

 

[superheat6k]

Direct from Noland in Florida then shipped via a firm we regularly buy through for my business also in Florida. PM sent separately.

Elessar your mail box is full. If you are interested in buying one, I could buy two so we get the cheaoer two on one order price. Please PM me.

 

[vas]

superheat6k,

thanks for the info. Really keen for exactly the same reasons to have this little box installed
However, I had an exchange of emails with their competitor Actisense and they raised two points, well one:
They are afraid of ground loop issues on one box for two engines, hence they don't support twin engine installations in their firmware right now (and can possibly be a long time before they do)

I cannot understand the implications of a ground loop in this situation, but they seem to be afraid that it can fry/damage the box.
Any comments on that from your experience?
Frankly I could even take the twin RS-11 for 360euro and still be cheaper than a single actisense + nmea2usb tool they sell separately...

Any other contenter in this game???

Regarding voltage, yes should not confuse system voltage with gauge sender ones. Should work, but will also ask their tech support ppl.
Main issue for me is to get them at a decent price in EU so as to avoid the extra tax/delay involved in ordering from the States.

cheers

 

[superheat6k]

superheat6k,

thanks for the info. Really keen for exactly the same reasons to have this little box installed
However, I had an exchange of emails with their competitor Actisense and they raised two points, well one:
They are afraid of ground loop issues on one box for two engines, hence they don't support twin engine installations in their firmware right now (and can possibly be a long time before they do)

I cannot understand the implications of a ground loop in this situation, but they seem to be afraid that it can fry/damage the box.
Any comments on that from your experience?
Frankly I could even take the twin RS-11 for 360euro and still be cheaper than a single actisense + nmea2usb tool they sell separately...

Any other contenter in this game???

Regarding voltage, yes should not confuse system voltage with gauge sender ones. Should work, but will also ask their tech support ppl.
Main issue for me is to get them at a decent price in EU so as to avoid the extra tax/delay involved in ordering from the States.

cheers

No issue with having two engines from one box. The power comes from the NMEA 2k not either engine, the RS 11 is just looking at signal levels, these are not in any other way connected, after all the RS11 doesn't load the devices being monitored.

If your signal were too high you could always wire a couple if resistors of suitable value not to load the signal as a potential divider to the RS11, but I doubt this would be necessary.

 

[ActisenseTechSupport]

No issue with having two engines from one box. The power comes from the NMEA 2k not either engine, the RS 11 is just looking at signal levels, these are not in any other way connected, after all the RS11 doesn't load the devices being monitored.

Both the RS11 and the EMU-1 have separate power from the bus, NMEA 2000 requires the bus power to be isolated from all other power sources and signals.
If you are using bus power to also power the RS11 then you are breaking the NMEA 2000 rules and risk the integrity of the bus.

Both are 'looking' at the signals passively with no loading, but are both ground referenced.
That reference ground is the ground that is used to power the RS11/EMU-1 and should be the same ground as the gauge being measured.
So really the same power source should be used for the engine as is used for the RS11/EMU-1.

Actisense will add dual engine support, we just want to ensure correct wiring is followed.
We don't like the 'just wire it up, it'll be fine' attitude.
During start up there is a lot of current flow, if there is a ground path via the EMU-1/RS11, that would be a worry.

 

[Batteryman]

Having used the RS11 I think it works fine in practise, but has one drawback. It uses only 2 data points to create a straight line graph. The Volvo Penta sensors are not all straight line response, particularly the temperature one at the lower end, i.e. below 40c. I am trying out another brand unit currently, playing with it on the bench so far I am quite impressed. It has a number of features over the other units. The Actisense unit I believe also has better matching curves than the RS11 but the programming tool costs far too much for an amateur installation in my opinion. I will report back once I have had some time.

 

[vas]

Having used the RS11 I think it works fine in practise, but has one drawback. It uses only 2 data points to create a straight line graph. The Volvo Penta sensors are not all straight line response, particularly the temperature one at the lower end, i.e. below 40c. I am trying out another brand unit currently, playing with it on the bench so far I am quite impressed. It has a number of features over the other units. The Actisense unit I believe also has better matching curves than the RS11 but the programming tool costs far too much for an amateur installation in my opinion. I will report back once I have had some time.

hi batteryman,
looking forward to your report as I still haven't bought anything so happy to get a better system for my VDO sensors
care to name the product so I can at least have a look at the specs?

cheers

V.

 

[Avalon]

You might also look at the products from Cantronik, a local firm based in Poole. They specialise in Can Bus instrumentation which I understand is compatible with NMEA2K.

They produce interface modules with 2 or 8 ports which will accept analogue, digital or frequency inputs. They are at www.cantronik.com

 

[ActisenseTechSupport]

They specialise in Can Bus instrumentation which I understand is compatible with NMEA2K.

NMEA 2000 is a CAN based system, however the data layer may be hugely different between different CAN systems. NMEA 2000 is not going to be compatible with other CAN systems unless it is specifically designed to be so. If you do go for a product from our neighbour, please ensure it is compatible first.

 

[ActisenseTechSupport]

You might find this page interesting:
http://www.panbo.com/archives/2013/...log_engine_gauges_to_nmea_2000_happiness.html

The Actisense unit I believe also has better matching curves than the RS11 but the programming tool costs far too much for an amateur installation in my opinion.

Here is a reply to a similar comment about the USB adapter on the thread linked above, so you don't have to look for it.

"You are correct that to interface a PC to NMEA 2000 you need an NMEA 2000 PC interface (NGT-1), however when you look at the number of uses the NGT-1 can be put to, you might see it's true value goes way beyond just configuring and upgrading the EMU-1:

1. Diagnostics - the NGT-1 helps you find issues with -any- NMEA 2000 device using our freely available NMEA Reader PC software. The log recordings captured by NMEA Reader are used by a number of manufacturer support technicians to help diagnose issues remotely - which can be a massive advantage.

2. PC Chart-plotter software - all of the big chart-plotting software suites (Coastal Explorer, Expedition, Nobeltec's various suites, Maxsea Timezero, Fugawi, Polarview, MacENC etc.) use the NGT-1 to read NMEA 2000 data and display it on their GUIs. Some also send NMEA 2000 messages back to the bus to make the NMEA 2000 data even richer.

3. PC software - compatibility with the NGT-1 goes far beyond chart-plotting software as can be seen by the compatibility list. There are even more developers and hobbyists using the NGT-1 that are not yet on the list.

4. Configuration - all Actisense NMEA 2000 devices are configurable (or will be) via the NGT-1. In addition, other manufacturer's (such as Victron Energy and Airmar) use the NGT-1 to configure and interface to their own devices as well.

5. Flash upgrade - the EMU-1 can be upgraded via the NMEA 2000 bus using the NGT-1. The NGT-1 and NGW-1 will also be remotely upgradable in the same way next year. Victron Energy also use the NGT-1 to upgrade their products over the NMEA 2000 bus.

We are constantly striving to get more NMEA 2000 manufacturer's and PC software developers to use our NGT-1 in the hope that it will become the only NMEA 2000 tool you will need to use. We are also trying to reduce the manufacturing costs (without impacting on quality) to make it a simpler purchase decision".

 

[vas]

Just to."close" the topic as far as I'm concerned, I plugged the RS11 yesterday night, wired it up to the NMEA2K and to the power (through the lighting of the gauges so that it will only work when I turn on the engines) and then wired the Rev counter + and -.
Started the engines rpm was way off (expected), installed the fdi (or something like that) usb drivers of the device. Fired the Nolan s/w, and started playing with the teeth settings for rpm. Four tries later and down to 12 from the default 60, both rev counters are spot on from idle up to 2K rpm
Well impressed!

Task for one of the next evenings is to wire to boost gauge and coolant temp and try to tune the curves at least around 60-80c and 1bar.

Shows nicely on mail plotter (rather pointless as you have the gauges next to it) but also on the GMI10s

Cheers

V

 

[superheat6k]

In the two seasons I had mine on Ocean Belle once it was set I never had to re-calibrate or adjust. Always worked and was spot on. The only thing I did notice that when the engines were shut down for some reason false RPM signals were generated, but I assume that was just noise on the wires. It wasn't a problem as by the the time the engines were shut down my primary interest was the fridge.

Although effective I do feel however that the Noland is simply too expensive for what it is. Will I fit one on Boadicea, probably not.

 

[vas]

In the two seasons I had mine on Ocean Belle once it was set I never had to re-calibrate or adjust. Always worked and was spot on. The only thing I did notice that when the engines were shut down for some reason false RPM signals were generated, but I assume that was just noise on the wires. It wasn't a problem as by the the time the engines were shut down my primary interest was the fridge.

Although effective I do feel however that the Noland is simply too expensive for what it is. Will I fit one on Boadicea, probably not.

quick right,

just reporting that wiring and setting up the rpm was easier than I was afraid (1h max)
During the week I'll try the oil pressure and coolant temp and I'll report again.

Mind the price I got it off you (IIRC) wasn't that bad
Serious, in the Med helming 99% from the f/b where typically gauges on older craft with mech engines are rather spartan (revs plus a few warning lights), I think a 200-300euro investment is not excessive.

Since the rebuilt I don't (yet) have any gauges upstairs, so once I change speed, I have to go downstairs, check revs, sync them and go up again...

cheers

V.