Me again, engine choice questions

[Robin]

In the ongoing search for an affordable live aboard, there are two Princess 435s on the market, one 1990 with 2 x 360hp Volvo TAM71A motors at around 1400 hrs and the other 1991 has 2 x 380hpTAMD71B Volvos at 1000 hrs. Otherwise the boats are similarly specced and similar price.

Are these good or bad engines and is the bigger hp one better for a heavy boat or no real difference?

We have not ruled out other boats either, just that these look good in pics and spacious ( the dated look fits my age too) compared to the P385 and Fairline Turbo 36s both with 306hp also on our short list.

Thanks!

 

[markc]

Hi

I had a Fairline 43/45 about 16 years ago with 358hp 71a engines and they were fine. TBH a bit of extra grunt would have been OK, but not sure the extra 44hp would be that noticeable. Looking at the 2 boats, the later one looks much nicer anyway and the hardtop and enclosed rear deck is a real bonus

 

[Robin]

Hi

I had a Fairline 43/45 about 16 years ago with 358hp 71a engines and they were fine. TBH a bit of extra grunt would have been OK, but not sure the extra 44hp would be that noticeable. Looking at the 2 boats, the later one looks much nicer anyway and the hardtop and enclosed rear deck is a real bonus

Thanks, the hardtop appeals except we had a similar setup on our trawler in the USA and the screen tracks pulled out under any load as in closing door zippers in a hurry. Also that one has no tender/ob listed.plus is a bit more expensive so not compensating for no tender. Also it is all electric cooking versus (seemingly) a dual gas/electric on the other, allowing hot drinks without running the generator at sea.? It has aircon mind which is nice if it works, expensive, as we found here when they fail .

PS added. My other ( and really primary)concern was if extracting more hp from the same basic engine made it more of a potential maintenance or reliability problem?

 

[markc]

Thanks, the hardtop appeals except we had a similar setup on our trawler in the USA and the screen tracks pulled out under any load as in closing door zippers in a hurry. Also that one has no tender/ob listed.plus is a bit more expensive so not compensating for no tender. Also it is all electric cooking versus (seemingly) a dual gas/electric on the other, allowing hot drinks without running the generator at sea.? It has aircon mind which is nice if it works, expensive, as we found here when they fail .

PS added. My other ( and really primary)concern was if extracting more hp from the same basic engine made it more of a potential maintenance or reliability problem?

The difference in price could easily evaporate after negotiation and I wouldn't let the presence of a tender be that much of a sway as they are easily picked up on eBay. I think I would prefer a boat without gas, although I wouldn't avoid one if it had gas. If you're desperate for hot drinks on the go, you'll have time for a 12V kettle to warm up ;-)

I'm no expert on Volvos but I suspect they have squeezed way more than 380 hp out of that block on more modem engines - I wouldn't worry about it. Also, these have run 30% less than the 71as, that must count for something.

 

[Robin]

The difference in price could easily evaporate after negotiation and I wouldn't let the presence of a tender be that much of a sway as they are easily picked up on eBay. I think I would prefer a boat without gas, although I wouldn't avoid one if it had gas. If you're desperate for hot drinks on the go, you'll have time for a 12V kettle to warm up ;-)

I'm no expert on Volvos but I suspect they have squeezed way more than 380 hp out of that block on more modem engines - I wouldn't worry about it. Also, these have run 30% less than the 71as, that must count for something.

when we bought our trawler to live aboard in the USA., part of it's 'charm' to an ancient rag and stick merchant was that it came with over 500w of solar panels on the hard top as well as a 10kw generator, but had an excellent full propane stove/oven and grill too, oh and propane BBQ. I find electicity, be it lack of or shocks from, more worrying. We have all electric cooking in our condo, drives me nuts, much prefer instantly responding gas.:ambivalence: That boat was also very wooden down below, reserving plastic for the bathrooms..

 

[markc]

Agreed, gas is better for cooking! (and exploding unfortunately!)

 

[Robin]

Agreed, gas is better for cooking! (and exploding unfortunately!)

Care and maintenance, gas works in millions of homes with care. I burned my hand recently when I forgot that the hot plate element although 'off' was still bloody hot and melted the polystyrene egg box I set down on it without thinking. Flames are good to see, or not,

 

[kashurst]

I had 71b s in a previous boat. Good engine, bit smokey when cold. The intercoolers can be a problem when they get old so check carefully and get prices for spares just in case. The 435 is a heavy boat so I would go with the bigger engines

 

[superheat6k]

There was a recent thread on the TAMD73 engines, and VP was not impressed.

Not sure if his comments apply to the TAMD71, but perhaps worth asking him.

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?478091-TAMD73p-20k-repair

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

In the ongoing search for an affordable live aboard, there are two Princess 435s on the market, one 1990 with 2 x 360hp Volvo TAM71A motors at around 1400 hrs and the other 1991 has 2 x 380hpTAMD71B Volvos at 1000 hrs. Otherwise the boats are similarly specced and similar price.

My 435 had the 71A engines and that just about hit 29-30knots on a good day downhill. The 71Bs should be good for around 30-31kts. I would knock 1-2kts off that because these are 25yr old+ boats now. Be aware that many 435s had 61As and these would only hit around 26kts in their prime and less now so you really want a 71A/B engined 435. My 71As had plenty of torque so would cruise at 20-22kts all day but ran out of puff a bit at the top end

In your position I would buy on condition only because these boats are getting on a bit as I said. In other words a mint 435 with 71As will be a much better bet than a scruffy one with 71Bs

 

[Robin]

My 435 had the 71A engines and that just about hit 29-30knots on a good day downhill. The 71Bs should be good for around 30-31kts. I would knock 1-2kts off that because these are 25yr old+ boats now. Be aware that many 435s had 61As and these would only hit around 26kts in their prime and less now so you really want a 71A/B engined 435. My 71As had plenty of torque so would cruise at 20-22kts all day but ran out of puff a bit at the top end

In your position I would buy on condition only because these boats are getting on a bit as I said. In other words a mint 435 with 71As will be a much better bet than a scruffy one with 71Bs

thanks to mike and others, I am more informed if not reassured. in my cruising life i only had one engine blow up on me, a Mercedes Om636 and a few hundred hours only after a total rebuild when the brand new oil pump fitted sheared it's drive. it cost me around 8,000 squids back then to replace the engine with a new Volvo MD22 ( actually a Perkins Prima a marinised Montego diesel, painted green over the Perkins blue by Volvo and sold as one of theirs. That was a 4 cylinder 50 hp mind on a sailboat not a big 6 cylinder 300 + hp chunk where they come in pairs and you don't have sails to get home on.:disgust:

The two p435s look pretty mint for their age and I suspect the choice might be made for us by which one is still on the market there is a surveyor over here with writing about engines that warns about both a) under engining a heavy boat or b) over forcing more power output from engines and props. I am easily frightened!

 

[longjohnsilver]

Robin, a question for you. You want a live aboard, that is clear, but what isn't clear is how much actual cruising you plan on doing. My experience is that the vast majority of live aboards actually go almost nowhere, they find a place they like and then tend to stay put, integrating into the local community. If that is what you anticipate doing then the choice of engines is almost irrelevant, it's the accommodation that's the really important factor. We all want to live comfortably, so choose the boat that suits you best. Even if you do plan on doing a bit of cruising, most boats maybe put 100 hrs or less on their engines each year, as opposed to many thousands of hours actually spent afloat but not going anywhere.

If you plan to be marina based then a generator and water capacity is fairly irrelevant, however if you're going to be on a mooring then genny, solar power, water capacity, size and ease of use of a tender all become extremely important.

Sorry if I'm teaching grandma to suck eggs, but sometimes we all need to take a step back and look at our actual priorities as opposed to perceived priorities. As you know, Eos is on a trot mooring in the river Dart and we spend rather a lot of time on board going nowhere, so I have learnt what is actually important for that style of living. But as I say, if marina based it would be very different. And obviously more expensive. But we are where we are because we love the peace and quiet and the fantastic views, but being marina based for the winter months is also quite attractive. Good luck with your search, there's certainly plenty to consider and look at. If there are any down in the SW that you would like me to take a look at let me know. We all know how frustrating it can be to travel a long way only to find what was described in glowing terms is anything but immaculate!

 

[Robin]

Robin, a question for you. You want a live aboard, that is clear, but what isn't clear is how much actual cruising you plan on doing. My experience is that the vast majority of live aboards actually go almost nowhere, they find a place they like and then tend to stay put, integrating into the local community. If that is what you anticipate doing then the choice of engines is almost irrelevant, it's the accommodation that's the really important factor. We all want to live comfortably, so choose the boat that suits you best. Even if you do plan on doing a bit of cruising, most boats maybe put 100 hrs or less on their engines each year, as opposed to many thousands of hours actually spent afloat but not going anywhere.

If you plan to be marina based then a generator and water capacity is fairly irrelevant, however if you're going to be on a mooring then genny, solar power, water capacity, size and ease of use of a tender all become extremely important.

Sorry if I'm teaching grandma to suck eggs, but sometimes we all need to take a step back and look at our actual priorities as opposed to perceived priorities. As you know, Eos is on a trot mooring in the river Dart and we spend rather a lot of time on board going nowhere, so I have learnt what is actually important for that style of living. But as I say, if marina based it would be very different. And obviously more expensive. But we are where we are because we love the peace and quiet and the fantastic views, but being marina based for the winter months is also quite attractive. Good luck with your search, there's certainly plenty to consider and look at. If there are any down in the SW that you would like me to take a look at let me know. We all know how frustrating it can be to travel a long way only to find what was described in glowing terms is anything but immaculate!

Being marina based is a SWMBO required 'option' The engine choice question is now academic on the P435s because the larger engine one is now sold they told me today, such is life, but then I tended towards favouring the other one anyway. I realise most boats don't do the miles/hrs we used to do but also don't want to be in a position whereby going somewhere more frequently would be nice but we cannot afford to I would love to be on a Dart river pontoon like you too but even if available which I doubt, commuting ashore to shop by tender or taxi would not go down well with the boss lady :disgust:

I suspect when we do get back the multiple questions will evaporate with actual availabilty and actual rather than perceived options. There is even a full displacement boat in Falmouth with a single 120hp and range of 1400 miles that would allow an annual fuel fill trip in Guernsey and then some but sadly the 'living' layout is a tad Spartan. Also a very nice Benny 44 centre cockpit sailer with a 75hp motor not far from you that appeals except it is a big high sided bugger and sans bow thruster, not ideal for awkward places and old wrinklies to jump off with lines as I am reliably advised :ambivalence: .

Time will tell!