BrendanS
Well-Known Member
I do know of about 70 instances where boats were let off MDL marina charges
MDL expansion
- Thread starter jamesjermain
- Start date
G
Guest
Guest
A month or more's worth? /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif And in exchange for...?
/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
OK, I'm being too cynical!
/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
OK, I'm being too cynical!
tcm
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ooh! But was that under different management?
G
Guest
Guest
Re: European marinas
Fair enough, it was a sweeping generalisation re the UK. But I do feel that there is some truth in it - a commercial attitude has become deeply engrained in UK culture. In many companies, bean counters have been employed to weigh the quantifiable benefits of taking approach A or B.
My beef with MDL was just based on my own extremely bad experience with them. It's great if others are happy. Obviously I can only view the world from personal experience.
I remember around Christmas there was a news item about a study in America that came to the conclusion that Christmas was economically inefficient because a present that cost $100 was on average only worth $60 (or whatever, can't remember the exact percentage) to the typical recipient - that economically it would make more sense if people chose and bought their own presents. Financially they were probably right - but completely missed out the point of giving and receiving presents - it isn't a financially quantifiable thing - the anticipation, the surprise at receiving something you would never have though of getting for yourself.
It seems to me that a bit of this bean-counting approach is rubbing off this side of the Atlantic. It doesn't make economic sense for marina companies to be really nice to their customers because plenty of other customers will come along. But in doing so, they rather defeat the purpose of going out on a sailing boat.
Fair enough, it was a sweeping generalisation re the UK. But I do feel that there is some truth in it - a commercial attitude has become deeply engrained in UK culture. In many companies, bean counters have been employed to weigh the quantifiable benefits of taking approach A or B.
My beef with MDL was just based on my own extremely bad experience with them. It's great if others are happy. Obviously I can only view the world from personal experience.
I remember around Christmas there was a news item about a study in America that came to the conclusion that Christmas was economically inefficient because a present that cost $100 was on average only worth $60 (or whatever, can't remember the exact percentage) to the typical recipient - that economically it would make more sense if people chose and bought their own presents. Financially they were probably right - but completely missed out the point of giving and receiving presents - it isn't a financially quantifiable thing - the anticipation, the surprise at receiving something you would never have though of getting for yourself.
It seems to me that a bit of this bean-counting approach is rubbing off this side of the Atlantic. It doesn't make economic sense for marina companies to be really nice to their customers because plenty of other customers will come along. But in doing so, they rather defeat the purpose of going out on a sailing boat.
BrendanS
Well-Known Member
weekends worth. paid a good chunk towards marquee hire and food as well, and a lot of free organising and resources. Nothing required back.
Mercury marina, two years running, and offered the third year as well. MD's (John Watson, and Jon Eads) offered when we were organising meets at Mercury marina a few years ago.
Mercury marina, two years running, and offered the third year as well. MD's (John Watson, and Jon Eads) offered when we were organising meets at Mercury marina a few years ago.
BrendanS
Well-Known Member
Jon Eads offered the third year, though we ended up not doing as not enough people
tcm
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Re: European marinas
all fair enough.
altho...I spose your experience actually shows that an easier attitude is -heh- actually *more* "commercial" in the long run.
all fair enough.
altho...I spose your experience actually shows that an easier attitude is -heh- actually *more* "commercial" in the long run.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: European marinas
[ QUOTE ]
I spose your experience actually shows that an easier attitude is -heh- actually *more* "commercial" in the long run.
[/ QUOTE ]
I would like to think so! At least it increases the quality of life...
[ QUOTE ]
I spose your experience actually shows that an easier attitude is -heh- actually *more* "commercial" in the long run.
[/ QUOTE ]
I would like to think so! At least it increases the quality of life...
Bergman
Well-Known Member
Mmmm
Swings and roundabouts really
You (not personally of course) will have much greater equity in your house and so more able to borrow more money to finance boat.
But whatever all these overpriced marinas appear to be full of boats, no sign of special offers, loyalty schemes etc.
Whether affordable or not people are paying these exhorbitant prices - so not much motivation on them to reduce.
I've never done the sum but I would bet there are more marina berths between Dover and Poole than the rest of the country combined.
As someone once said you can't buck the market.
Swings and roundabouts really
You (not personally of course) will have much greater equity in your house and so more able to borrow more money to finance boat.
But whatever all these overpriced marinas appear to be full of boats, no sign of special offers, loyalty schemes etc.
Whether affordable or not people are paying these exhorbitant prices - so not much motivation on them to reduce.
I've never done the sum but I would bet there are more marina berths between Dover and Poole than the rest of the country combined.
As someone once said you can't buck the market.
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Doing sums
Let's see. say 300 berths at an average of £5k per berth = £1.5 mil.
Say another 25 visiting yachts for 25 summer weeks at £25 per night = £109,000
Maybe another £100K from renting shoreside facilities to business.
Annual income, rounded right up £2 million.
Cost of maintenance, 24/7 staffing, heating, cleaning, dredging, rental of seabed form Crown Estates. No idea but how does £2 million sound?
Contrary to popular beleif, I don't think the marina business really is a licence to print pictures of the queen.
Let's see. say 300 berths at an average of £5k per berth = £1.5 mil.
Say another 25 visiting yachts for 25 summer weeks at £25 per night = £109,000
Maybe another £100K from renting shoreside facilities to business.
Annual income, rounded right up £2 million.
Cost of maintenance, 24/7 staffing, heating, cleaning, dredging, rental of seabed form Crown Estates. No idea but how does £2 million sound?
Contrary to popular beleif, I don't think the marina business really is a licence to print pictures of the queen.
Sixpence
Well-Known Member
Re: Doing sums
it isn't , which is why I just sit back and watch the usual complaints , they do make a profit but then , erm , sorry , that's business
it isn't , which is why I just sit back and watch the usual complaints , they do make a profit but then , erm , sorry , that's business
tcm
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Re: Doing sums
2million costs sounds pretty flippin steep!
Also you forgot the forty zillion quid they make from selling electricity PLUS the special wires...
2million costs sounds pretty flippin steep!
Also you forgot the forty zillion quid they make from selling electricity PLUS the special wires...
Sixpence
Well-Known Member
Re: Doing sums
by special wires , do you mean the tinned copper strand hook up cables , that are far from cheap to anyone
by special wires , do you mean the tinned copper strand hook up cables , that are far from cheap to anyone
[2574]
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Re: Doing sums
A marina business will generally produce a trading profit ratio of between 30% to 50%. The large variance arises because of a number of variables for example: land tenure (freehold or leasehold), dredging requirement, desireability of location and therefore the achieveable tariff, occupancy, etc - it's quite a long list. So, taking the mid point of 40% your example £2m t/o marina will likely generate trading profit of £800k. BUT don't forget trading profit is before financing cost and a marina business is essentially a property play and will inevitably be carrying structured debt.
The capital value of your example marina is likely to be in excess of £9M. Assuming a debt value of 60% of asset value that would mean debt of £5.4M. Given the likely borrowing cost on that debt of say 6.25% at present levels this would equate to finance costs of £337k. So, net profit after finance cost is about £460k. Corporation tax payable is likely to be about £140k so profit after tax is £320k.
We then have to remunerate the shareholder for the balance of the funding (£9M-£5.4M=£3.6M of equity funding). The property investment return indices (The IPD index) currently give property income returns of 5.1% giving equity financing costs of £184k. So, retained profit after income dividend is £136k.
From the £136k the marina operator has to provide for capital investment for improvement of the marina.
So, the conclusion. Marinas are good cash generative businesses and remunerate the investors adequately. However there are not quick profits to be made, it is a long term investment that will show good returns over time due to capital growth of the asset value.
rob
A marina business will generally produce a trading profit ratio of between 30% to 50%. The large variance arises because of a number of variables for example: land tenure (freehold or leasehold), dredging requirement, desireability of location and therefore the achieveable tariff, occupancy, etc - it's quite a long list. So, taking the mid point of 40% your example £2m t/o marina will likely generate trading profit of £800k. BUT don't forget trading profit is before financing cost and a marina business is essentially a property play and will inevitably be carrying structured debt.
The capital value of your example marina is likely to be in excess of £9M. Assuming a debt value of 60% of asset value that would mean debt of £5.4M. Given the likely borrowing cost on that debt of say 6.25% at present levels this would equate to finance costs of £337k. So, net profit after finance cost is about £460k. Corporation tax payable is likely to be about £140k so profit after tax is £320k.
We then have to remunerate the shareholder for the balance of the funding (£9M-£5.4M=£3.6M of equity funding). The property investment return indices (The IPD index) currently give property income returns of 5.1% giving equity financing costs of £184k. So, retained profit after income dividend is £136k.
From the £136k the marina operator has to provide for capital investment for improvement of the marina.
So, the conclusion. Marinas are good cash generative businesses and remunerate the investors adequately. However there are not quick profits to be made, it is a long term investment that will show good returns over time due to capital growth of the asset value.
rob
tcm
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Wow, real numbers for TK
Excellent stuff!
I imagine that TwisterKen's apprently flipping useless marina management team probably planned to spend the £136k down the pub at lunchtimes, hence the difference between your forecast and his.
Excellent stuff!
I imagine that TwisterKen's apprently flipping useless marina management team probably planned to spend the £136k down the pub at lunchtimes, hence the difference between your forecast and his.
doris
Well-Known Member
James, look what you have started.
Why do these threads always finish up with a few forumites having a rant about MDL.
Simon, I put the phone number of the MD up earlier in the thread so peeps like you could get in touch and sort out whatever your bad experience was and move on. He does not hide below the ramparts and will welcome constructive conversation.
How about the whingers shutting up or sorting their bad karma, then they can, perhaps, move on. Constructive conversation works in all the businesses that I have been invlolved with and makes for happy punters, employees and shareholders. Maybe you should try it.
Why do these threads always finish up with a few forumites having a rant about MDL.
Simon, I put the phone number of the MD up earlier in the thread so peeps like you could get in touch and sort out whatever your bad experience was and move on. He does not hide below the ramparts and will welcome constructive conversation.
How about the whingers shutting up or sorting their bad karma, then they can, perhaps, move on. Constructive conversation works in all the businesses that I have been invlolved with and makes for happy punters, employees and shareholders. Maybe you should try it.
Barr Avel
Well-Known Member
Re: European marinas
Just looked it up. A Saint Tropez marina (http://www.portdesissambres.com/) charges around €4600 (£3220) for a 10-12 metre yacht.
Lymington yacht haven charge £6270 for 11m (can't say for MDL aas they don't have their annual prices online).
So it still seems to de 2x the price of the French riviera...
Marc.
Just looked it up. A Saint Tropez marina (http://www.portdesissambres.com/) charges around €4600 (£3220) for a 10-12 metre yacht.
Lymington yacht haven charge £6270 for 11m (can't say for MDL aas they don't have their annual prices online).
So it still seems to de 2x the price of the French riviera...
Marc.
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Re: European marinas
Point of information, Mr Speaker.
Port des Issambres may be on the Golfe de St Tropez, but it's not actually St Trop, it's more like Sainte Maxime.
Point of information, Mr Speaker.
Port des Issambres may be on the Golfe de St Tropez, but it's not actually St Trop, it's more like Sainte Maxime.
tcm
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Re: European marinas
hm, yes, not even in ste maxime, issambres a bit of a desolate boat park 200euro cab ride from airport, but let's not spoil the story eh...
hm, yes, not even in ste maxime, issambres a bit of a desolate boat park 200euro cab ride from airport, but let's not spoil the story eh...
doris
Well-Known Member
Re: European marinas
And is there even space there if you wanted it???????????????And your north african french cousin owned a minicab firm.
And is there even space there if you wanted it???????????????And your north african french cousin owned a minicab firm.
