MDL expansion

mmm, so we agree that if people are willing to pay a high price for a marina berth, then the marina owners will charge so, yes? Well, do you see as many large mobos in excess of £350K, like you see over here, when over the other side of the channel? Do you think this might have an effect on pricing?
 
I doubt that the price is related to standards to any great extent.

Its simple supply and demand.

Most of the money in the UK is in the South East.

And most people for some reason want to sail on the Solent and the prices reflect that.
 
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doubt that the price is related to standards to any great extent.

Its simple supply and demand.

Most of the money in the UK is in the South East.

And most people for some reason want to sail on the Solent and the prices reflect that.

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The amount of money (allegedly) in the South East has little to do with it. The chap who drives down from Brum on a Friday eve will most likely be paying a lot less for his house than we have to pay (local variations accepted), so may have more disposable income.

For me living near Chichester, I would love to keep my boat and sail West coast of Scotland. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
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Well, do you see as many large mobos in excess of £350K, like you see over here, when over the other side of the channel? Do you think this might have an effect on pricing?

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Not sure - are you saying that there are more expensive yachts in south coast UK than on the continent and that affects prices? It's hard to say, but the general run of yachts are about the same size as UK ie, 30' to 40', and that's the marina pricing that I was looking at. Anyway, Scandinavian yachts are not exactly renowned for being cheap 'n nasty.

Of course it's supply and demand, but it's also a corporate culture screw-the-customer-for-as-much-as-we-can-get thing in the UK. Outside the UK you get the feeling that marinas recognise that you're going sailing to enjoy yourself rather than be milked.

I think that Brits generally have become very commercially minded: everything has a price. And that culture is reflected in the way that marinas are run.
 
European marinas

It would appear that a lot of forumites have not experienced marinas in the S of France, the Balearics, Italy etc. They would then realise that the marinas in the most populated and expensive parts (in real estate terms) of the UK are good value. Try getting a berth in Nice, Juan les Pains or Menton and maybe you will see things differently.
 
I can't prove this (but it's the internet so I don't need to!) - but my understanding is that many Marinas on the Continent / France have been built as part of Regional Development in conjunction with local councils / the EU......the idea being to attract visitors / money to the area - not just to the Marina facility (hence the max not being squeezed from the Marina operations)..............some might call this Communism /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
 
um well, whether good or bad, the price of berths is very tightly linked to the demand. Ask MDL themselves, no giant secret. Long waiting list and the price can go up. Empty spaces and the price has to come down. Just because prices in northern france are lower doesn't mean the french marinas are less commercially minded - they could be extremely commerically minded, but the conditions force them to charge less. For a higher paid uk resident though it may easily feel an utter bargain to stumble across other cheaper areas.

Commercially-minded-wise, I suppose one wd expect areas with more economic activity, higher demands and financial pressures to be more commerically minded, those in les remote areas to be less so.

However, plenty of foreign marinas actually vary their prices by a factor of two or more between summer and winter, whereas i know none that do so in the uk. So at one time or another, praps uk marinas are perhaps not charging as much as they could, and your surely too-sweeping statement regarding the UK culture disproven?
 
Re: European marinas

Thanks yes I know the French Riviera quite well. If you want to keep a superyacht in Monte Carlo you're going to have to pay for it, and the 'ordinary' yachts are competing for harbour space in each of the French harbours you mention with these big guys. That's quite a distorted market, and there is relatively little space along that coast for 'normal' sailors.

The south coast - indeed the whole of Britain, because I believe pretty much throughout Britain marina prices are high with very few exceptions, including the East Coast and Scotland for example - is an area with a wealth of harbours and marinas, and most of them are not crowded out by the superyacht crowd. Britain is not short of coast. The fact is that big companies owning marinas have pushed up the prices. There has to be the teensiest suspicion that the big players might just be tempted to get on the phone to one another when setting their prices. In France by contrast, there are plenty of cheap marinas if you move away from the Cote d'Azur.

In any case, it had earlier been suggested that prices were high in Britain because land etc. costs were high, but for the reasons already mentioned that doesn't stack up. Of course it's supply and demand. And also to what extent punters are willing to be taken for a ride.

Are you quite sure that you're not on commission?
 
The ones I've been to have mostly been privately owned. I doubt if they attract many visitors to the area as they are mostly local boats. I'm the only foreign boat I've ever seen in my current marina which is owned by a family.
 
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Just because prices in northern france are lower doesn't mean the french marinas are less commercially minded - they could be extremely commerically minded, but the conditions force them to charge less.

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An illustration about commercially minded approach: twice recently marinas in Germany have told me AFTER I stayed in it that they wouldn't charge me for 1 month (in once case) or 2 months (in the other) - different marinas. It was done as a gesture of goodwill. That would be inconceivable in a UK marina.

A more 'pure' commercial approach on their part would have been to offer me the discount in advance, not when they presented the bill afterwards. Especially as in both cases they knew I was passing through, so repeat business was not very likely.

Also, both marinas did some work on my boat - one worked on the engine, the other tightened the stern gland, both refused payment except for the promise of a beer.

Now that may make good commercial sense in terms of encouraging customer satisfaction, so you may argue that they are being commercially minded, but it leaves me having ENJOYED the experience. We are after all supposed to enjoy sailing.

An MDL marina, by contrast, did a little work on my boat once, mainly servicing items. Not having stayed there before I very naively assumed it was included in the overall price. When I think back on how green I was, I feel like weeping. The bill came to thousands of pounds - for what I considered was doing very little. I would have done the jobs myself (and have every year since) had I realised they would charge. What is more they stored my outboard in a shed and when I came to leave they couldn't access it. So I had to sail away without it. They didn't offer to deliver it, so a few months later I sailed past that marina to pick it up. I stopped at a pontoon for 10 minutes to run into the office, pick up the outboard and sail straight off. They tried to charge me something like £15 (I foget the exact figure) for use of their pontoon for 10 minutes while they dug out the outboard! It was only after a massive argument when I threatened to present them with my own invoice for collection that they gave up.
 
Agree.

The RYA would do us a big favour if they could get more marina developments through planning.

At present our only hope is that the removal of Red diesel will cause an exodus of MoBos to france/guensey/jersey as the cheaper fuel (in addition to the cheaper berth) may be the final deciding factor.

Not holding my breath though.
 
Interesting point that... we certainly do need more marinas...

If I were to change my current career path and decide to open a marina, besides the nightmare (and most likely impossible scenario) of getting planning permission, the costs would be quite hairy...... land prices for UK coast line are verging on the ridiculous, especially bits of land with any likelihood of getting planning permission. I would guess we are talking several millions at a minimum. I dread to think what the costs of installing pontoons with full services would be, and then staffing 24/7..... I can just imagine how hard the financial case would be to get to stack up....

However, as an East Coast sailor, the two times i've needed/wanted to find a new marina berth, i've not struggled to do so....

As we all know, the East Coast just doesn't get so overloaded as part of the south coast, including especially the Solent!

So, given that, what are the chances of others taking the plunge on the planning consent nightmare and the financials of a marina?.... not high i'd wager
 
Re: European marinas

Um, well, you don't know the fr riviera all that well - Monte carlo is amongst the most dirt cheap of all the marinas along that coast especially for superyachts. The exception is at GP week, when prices skyrocket.

But for mostof the time the superyachts hardly compete at all with ordinary boats - they can't switch around a superyacht pontoon to fit smaller boats much if at all. Once they have a few boats of a certain size,changing it is a big operation.

It has to be said that fr marinas on that coast differ markedly in that many spaces are private, so can't be used or sublet by the marina. This also means that each marina is really several marinas of a load of 10m berths, a load of 15m berths and so on - each space carries a fixed price so if you're a 10m boat you can go in a 15m no prob - but you pay 15m price. This is a load more rippy than uk, really?

But nevertheless St tropez - which is partlyowned by the local council of course - is crammed and giant priced (500 euros a night in august) but next door in Cogolin there's almost always a space at almost no notice. St trop has recently extended their high season pricing into may, because heh,they can get away with it.

For ordinary boats as you call them, there is much less pressure because the demand is more elastic and also because of easier planning for smaller boats and far greater numbers of sub-10m berths.

But all the berths are carefully priced and vary season to season according to distance from airport, nastiness of marina - which all affect demand. So yes, as you say, find a marina in lower demand area, lower prices. So they are very commercially minded,no?

The opportunism in italy even extends to fabulous sardinian summer tax on boats over 15m,again showing the uk as not really all that rippy. Or not more so at any rate, as you claimed.

Sepretly, no, I most certainly am not on commission with MDL and indeed have had some of my mdl posts pulled. No need to go off on one really.
 
Just a minute, German marinas don't have comparable demand nor even close.

I've been let off marias charges in the UK - but also in a cheap and not hefty-demand area.

So not inconceivable, and uk hence not so appalling commerically minded.

disclaimer: this does not mean that ithik MDL aren't sometimes ratbaggishly too-intensely-commercial and grasping for reasons which if i explained would have them calling to have this post pulled. My main objection is that SimonCr is extending the attitude shown by near-monopoly sth coast to whole uk population, which i think is a bit much....
 
I think there are opportunities in reclaimed land but the NIMBYs alway kill them.

The UK has serious energy and infrastructure problems that will not be solved until the government alter the planning regs.

They are talking about this so perhaps some more marinas will be possible on the back of a change in the planning laws.

On the South Coast I always thought Langstone harbour had great potential.
 
Re: European marinas

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Sepretly, no, I most certainly am not on commission with MDL and indeed have had some of my mdl posts pulled.

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I didn't suggest that you were! The reply was to Doris re his personal contact with MDL chairman etc., but was of course not intended literally - hopefully he isn't oin fact receiving commission.

I'm not trying to dispute that the French Riviera is expensive. And I'm certainly not trying to suggest that the harbours on the French Riviera are not commercially minded. I WAS trying to suggest that taking a slightly extreme case like the French Riviera may not be the best model for working out what's happening in Britain. South coast UK prices are extremely high, not just in some marinas and at certain times of the year, but consistently. They're also very high for example on the East coast (though not as bad as the south).
 
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Just a minute, German marinas don't have comparable demand nor even close.

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Not compared to the south coast perhaps. But the point of being let off fees when the marina has the right to charge them ie. after you use the service, isn't related to supply and demand. It's a question of attitude.

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My main objection is that SimonCr is extending the attitude shown by near-monopoly sth coast to whole uk population, which i think is a bit much....

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Fair enough, I was making a sweeping generalisation, which is of course untrue in many cases. But I believe that overall there is a distinct difference in the way that most marinas in the UK approach charging their clients - whether in an area where demand outstrips supply or not - that is noticeable.

I admit, I've only been in a small proprtion of all the marinas in the UK, and I am sure that there are many fine people running them. When I kept my boat on the East coast I didn't have a problem getting a marina berth, but the annual berthing fees (while low compared to south coast) were still extremely high. Despite the fact that supply seemed to outstrip demand. And i got no rebates on fees or nice gestures. The marina staff were all very nice, and no complaints about them.
 
Re: European marinas

ok - point taken on the commission thing.

But you DID make a clean leap from the attitude of MDL (grrr etc) and apply same to whole of uk corporate culture and general population. Which i think not true, really. Otherwise the accounts departments of uk plc would have guns and find other ways of enforcing payment on a wholly we-don't-trust-you-an-inch-basis, whioch doesn't usually apply.
 
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