MBY kill cord campaign – what do you think?

[jfm]

Worth noting that MAIB did put out an early safety briefing

http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/SB1_13.pdf

Yup I know. Anyone can jump to a conclusion, including the MAIB. There is a factual statement in that briefing which I think will ultimately be shown to be wrong, but of course I have no idea what the report will ultimately say
I have no problem with discussion on killcords etc. All I'm proposing is that people don't jump to critical/disparaging conclusions about the behaviour of the father in charge of the boat (who sadly lost his life as we all know) in advance of reading the MAIB report, because that actual facts are different from what many are assuming

 

[Hugo_Andreae]

Hugo, by all means discuss killcords generically if you wish but it is quite wrong imho to have this discussion in the context of the tragic Padstow incident. It is even more wrong imho for people to make the disparaging remarks that have been above made about the skipper of the Padstow RIB. What happened in Padstow will I guess be revealed fully by the MAIB report but you will I think find that it was not a case of a RIB being driven fast by a driver not wearing the killcord, and was instead a very unfortunate accident that "could have happened to anyone". You'll also find I think that none of the options in the poll at top of this thread would have made any difference to what happened. In fact, the Padstow tragedy will I expect result in no criticism of current killcords as a concept but might well result in criticism of a different bit of boat equipment that is fitted to several boats but not most boats. (I mean < 1% of boats kinda thing). You really do have to wait for the MAIB report on this one and as I say please don't criticise the boat crew/father now based on the (wrong) assumption that they were deliberately driving fast without a killcord being worn because that's just inappropriate for a family suffering such grief

I agree that we should not leap to any conclusions about what happened in Padstow and should certainly not make any disparaging assumptions or remarks about the skipper. I am aware of some (but not all) of the circumstances surrounding the accident and have been very careful to avoid mentioning them or drawing any conclusions based on them.

The one fact that we do know for certain is that at the time of the accident the kill cord was not being worn. There may well be a reason for this and I have made no secret of the fact that there have been occasions when I have unclipped from the kill cord on my boat and left the engine running. That's why I'm interested in looking into the possibility of developing a system that is both safer (ie harder to forget, ignore or avoid) and more user friendly to ensure that there is less chance of this type of accident occurring regardless of the circumstances. In this regard I think it's only natural to discuss it in the general context of the Padstow acccident but not in the specifics until they are fully known and understood.

It will be interesting to see when the full MAIB report is made public whether any of the ideas put forward could or would have changed the outcome of the accident. I think there is good chance they could have but we'll see.

I feel desperately sorry for the family and while I cannot do anything to change the outcome of the accident, I think we can have an honest and open debate about kill cords that doesn't automatically assume the current design is as good as it could be.

 

[ricky_s]

Think the subject should just be dropped, it's not in the papers now......

 

[Hugo_Andreae]

Think the subject should just be dropped, it's not in the papers now......

All the more reason for us to keep it alive and make sure people understand why it's important to use the kill cords they already have, while looking into the possibility of making the next generation even better/safer/more user friendly and harder to ignore.

 

[Nos4r2]

All the more reason for us to keep it alive and make sure people understand why it's important to use the kill cords they already have, while looking into the possibility of making the next generation even better/safer/more user friendly and harder to ignore.

I have a suggestion. It'd cost very little,and it's a far simpler idea.

Remove the facility to stop the motor from the key, so you can ONLY stop the motor by pulling off the kill cord.
Turning the ignition switch to 'off' won't stop the motor so the kill cord has to be removed and refitted to restart the motor. Once the motor has stopped, the ignition key will work as normal.
Run a version of an 'alternator field disconnect' on the ignition switch so accidentally turning it to off without stopping the motor won't fry the alternator.


Simple and easy to fit and to retrofit (would simply mean a replacement ignition switch).


It's very hard to leave a killcord dangling if you have to remove it to stop the motor.

 

[Hugo_Andreae]

I have a suggestion. It'd cost very little,and it's a far simpler idea.

Remove the facility to stop the motor from the key, so you can ONLY stop the motor by pulling off the kill cord.
Turning the ignition switch to 'off' won't stop the motor so the kill cord has to be removed and refitted to restart the motor. Once the motor has stopped, the ignition key will work as normal.

Interesting idea.

I had another thought as well. How about making it possible to pull the kill cord out in neutral without killing the engine but then making sure the throttle won't go back into gear until you've reattached?

That gets around the problem of either having to detach yourself (to do fenders etc) and then forgetting to reattach or of killing the engine and the subsequent risk of it not restarting when you need it most.

 

[Nos4r2]

Interesting idea.

I had another thought as well. How about making it possible to pull the kill cord out in neutral without killing the engine but then making sure the throttle won't go back into gear until you've reattached?

That gets around the problem of either having to detach yourself (to do fenders etc) and then forgetting to reattach or of killing the engine and the subsequent risk of it not restarting when you need it most.

It's doable with flybywire type controls. Trouble is, there's potential there for someone to not be able to recover the helmsman if he goes overboard.

 

[Nick_H]

Trouble is, there's potential there for someone to not be able to recover the helmsman if he goes overboard.

There is with the current kill cord if you don't carry a spare cord

 

[Nos4r2]

There is with the current kill cord if you don't carry a spare cord

True,with most systems, but you can restart without a cord on Evinrudes now, and Mercury killswitches don't need a cord either.

 

[wakeup]

A spring loaded throttle would have saved the lives of the father and young daughter and the life altering injuries suffered by the survivors of the Padstowe incident. I would not have a problem with that approach for all boats under say 28ft. Above this length then you are into cruiser territory with autopilots etc.

 

[Nos4r2]

A spring loaded throttle would have saved the lives of the father and young daughter and the life altering injuries suffered by the survivors of the Padstowe incident.

So would wearing the killcord.It really isn't rocket science. They had safety equipment, they decided not to use it correctly,people died. I don't understand why there's such a fuss over it. If they'd climbed over the barriers on the side of a motorway and run around in the traffic it would have been no less stupid.

I would not have a problem with that approach for all boats under say 28ft. Above this length then you are into cruiser territory with autopilots etc.

No it wouldn't. Helm stays in the same place if it's hydraulic, and it'd have to be able to pull the throttle into neutral as well.Otherwise the boat will continue to circle, albeit slower.

Try using a spring loaded hand throttle with enough spring tension to pull it to neutral for any length of time and you'll soon get tired of it.

 

[dp24]

Interesting idea.

I had another thought as well. How about making it possible to pull the kill cord out in neutral without killing the engine but then making sure the throttle won't go back into gear until you've reattached?

That gets around the problem of either having to detach yourself (to do fenders etc) and then forgetting to reattach or of killing the engine and the subsequent risk of it not restarting when you need it most.

Personally I think it would be useful to use idle in gear with the kill cord detached, when mooring etc.

Perhaps if the kill cord was removed when the engine was in neutral (or when also pressing a 'hold' button) engine would operate at idle speeds for 30-45 sec, then 5 sec warning buzzer, then kill the engine.
(if the kill cord was removed when in gear it would still kill the engine immediately)

As above I think this would overcome the habit of removing the cord to untie the mooring lines then forgetting to reattach until under way.

 

[wakeup]

I am not sure the 6 year old made any choice to use or not the kill cord.

You missed my point about bigger boats, there is a lot less chance of being thrown into the water from one than a rib.

 

[Nos4r2]

I am not sure the 6 year old made any choice to use or not the kill cord.

You missed my point about bigger boats, there is a lot less chance of being thrown into the water from one than a rib.

It's probably not a good idea to get too emotive about it-before too long someone will be running round in circles screaming 'oh no, the children' and tearing their hair out. Whoever wasn't wearing the killcord was negligent. In the no killcord+incapacitated/MOB helm=runaway boat equation it makes no odds who gets killed, but if it's a child and a city bigwig it makes bigger headlines.

It doesn't matter if there's less chance of being thrown in the water. If you're incapacitated in any way and are still aboard, you've got a runaway boat.

Education, education, education.

 

[Hugo_Andreae]

So would wearing the killcord.It really isn't rocket science. They had safety equipment, they decided not to use it correctly,people died. I don't understand why there's such a fuss over it. If they'd climbed over the barriers on the side of a motorway and run around in the traffic it would have been no less stupid.

Wow, that's a remarkably harsh and simplistic view given that the full details of what happened have not yet been published. I have often detached myself from the kill cord to deal with fenders etc while leaving the engine idling in neutral and on occasions I have forgotten to clip back on. I have never climbed over the barriers and run around in the traffic. The two are not even remotely comparable.

 

[ricky_s]

Hugo,

The results here clearly show boaters mainly what no change in hardware but more awareness so why are you still pushing here and in the magazine for change?

 

[Hugo_Andreae]

Hugo,

The results here clearly show boaters mainly what no change in hardware but more awareness so why are you still pushing here and in the magazine for change?

What the majority actually seem to want according to our poll is better ttraining and awareness, which is exactly what we are helping to do by keeping the issue in the public eye.

As a magazine we are still keeping an open mind about the best way forward, and better training and awareness must unquestionably play a big role in that, not least because any change in technology is only ever likely to apply to new boats/engines not the large fleet that is already out there. However, teaching every single person who is ever likely to drive a boat now and in the future is a hell of a big task if the same problem could be solved by fitting a more user-friendly device that was as reliable, harder to override and less restrictive.

I make no secret of the fact that personally I think a better solution can be found. I am basing that opinion on my own experience as the owner of a boat fitted with a kill cord that I find annoyingly restrictive and far too easy to forget or over-ride. I don't think I should feel that either my safety or my ability to move around the boat is being compromised. Having now tried both the Autotether and Coast Key devices on my own boat for the last two months I am more convinced than ever. Granted I need to be convinced that they will carry on working reliably for years to come and the cost needs to come down but if something similar were made and fitted as standard to every new outboard engine over 50hp, I am convinced it would improve people's enjoyment of their boat (ie free to move around without cutting the engine or unclipping) and save lives.

 

[david_bagshaw]

£550!!!!!

We that's my subscription the MB&Y and MBM up the swanny for 8 years then.

All because one wassock wasn't wearing a kill cord and another forced me to buy something I didn't need.

and another level of complexity to go wrong along with another battery to replace.

I am sure most would agree the electrics are themost unreliable part of a boat, so why add more?

 

[david_bagshaw]

What the majority actually seem to want according to our poll is better ttraining and awareness, which is exactly what we are helping to do by keeping the issue in the public eye.

As a magazine we are still keeping an open mind about the best way forward, and better training and awareness must unquestionably play a big role in that, not least because any change in technology is only ever likely to apply to new boats/engines not the large fleet that is already out there. However, teaching every single person who is ever likely to drive a boat now and in the future is a hell of a big task if the same problem could be solved by fitting a more user-friendly device that was as reliable, harder to override and less restrictive.

I make no secret of the fact that personally I think a better solution can be found. I am basing that opinion on my own experience as the owner of a boat fitted with a kill cord that I find annoyingly restrictive and far too easy to forget or over-ride. I don't think I should feel that either my safety or my ability to move around the boat is being compromised. Having now tried both the Autotether and Coast Key devices on my own boat for the last two months I am more convinced than ever. Granted I need to be convinced that they will carry on working reliably for years to come and the cost needs to come down but if something similar were made and fitted as standard to every new outboard engine over 50hp, I am convinced it would improve people's enjoyment of their boat (ie free to move around without cutting the engine or unclipping) and save lives.

As to training being a big task, it is upto the skipper to ensure all users of the tender follow his or her directions as to how to use and why. May be the insurers could take the lead here, if fitted must be used.

But I would not like to be run over by our 8 hp prop, equally in the abandon ship scenario, the last thing I would wish to look for is some electronic gizmo for the outboard. Equally keeping the gismo in the rib is a non starter judging buy the black mold that grows in the seat with little encouragement. We even keep a spare kill cord end in a special place so the occupants of the rib can easily get back to recover the overboard driver. don't see that with an electronic gizmo.


Personally I am against the compulsive wearing of life jackets, but see little restriction of personal liberties in enforcement of the use of kill cords.

 

[Hugo_Andreae]

I tend to agree that the current kill cord is probably still the most appropriate solution for small tiller steered outboards up to about 20hp that are likely to be used on tenders along with a sprung throttle (as most already are). In a small boat simplicity and cost are paramount, and you can reach everything you need to while still wearing the kill cord.

On a larger RIB or sportsboat with a separate helm position and a more powerful engine you are already relying on electrics to run much of the boat and the extra cost of a wireless system (probably £200 at most if fitted as standard to all brand new engines) is more easily lost on a boat costing upwards of £20,000, especially when it brings added benefits such as the ability to move around the boat, anti-theft security and reduces the likelihood of someone forgetting to use/wear the kill cord. You need to build in plenty of failsafes to ensure you can start the engine if anything fails or gets lost but that is easily done as demonstrated by the Coast Key system I am reviewing in the next issue.