MBY article on shipping boats

[jfm]

After all the research done via this forum, I found the article a bit disappointing.

1. There was heavy mention of must-have-VAT-paid paperwork again. I have shipped boats with the companies mentioned without needing VAT-paid paperwork, and had no problems with customs etc. You just need to do it right

2. Th checklist of preparations was a bit odd I thought. Why on earth remove the log impeller??? Why remove electonics? Why have tiny levels of fuel and water, given that you will want to drive to a possible distant final destination at the other end? The comment about customs worrying about your drinks cabinet is just daft within the EU.

3. The guy who had the engine problem with the Sq58 had an unfortunate time but the suggested remedy was quite wrong I thought. Starting the engines on the deck of the transport ship and revving the engines would have met with disapproval from the shippers and would have busted the raw water pump impellers, resulting in overheat on the voyage at the other end. The correct procedure is to drain the exhaust silencers using the taps at the bottom. I'm v familiar with the Sq58 in particular and the exh silencers have a drain cock at the bottom fitted with a hose leading to the bilge. you open the tap and drain the silencers. Not exactly rocket science, and all stipulated in the manual, and well worth the effort at €65k a pop. Bit strange that MBY would endorse running engines out of the water, and blipping the throttles to boot. (I also don't understnad how an engine runs for 20mins with a seized piston, and how cylinder corrosion causes overheating; maybe someone has a theory to explain all that?)

 

[[2068]]

I could understand how cylinder head corrosion might cause overheating, if valves sticking.

 

[mjf]

Ya - I thought the check list was a bit off the wall too.

The exhaust draining is essential - Halyard have stickers all over mine advising what to do.

That said for normal yard lifts (with competent peeps I.C) no need as slings are correctly placed and stern trim maintained - even on walk about ariund the yard.

 

[Adrianwool]

Gentlemen,
What you say in terms of paperwork may be the case if transporting your yacht by sea. If you are transporting by road then it is advisable to have as much documentation as you possibly provide for your transporting company. When I had my 'coracle' transported by road via Santander ferry then by road through Spain and Portugal the transporting company asked me to provide a copy of the VAT invoice, boat registration certificate and Bill of Sale. These may not be needed but if asked for by an officious customs officer then they can 'smooth the path' and facilitate ongoing transport of your pride and joy with the least possible aggravation.

In regard to preparation for transport a lot of companies terms & conditions ask you to drain down you water tanks, and fuel tanks. The former is easy the latter not so , therefore you travel with the minimum amount of fuel in your tanks. Also, canopies must be removed, gas disconnected, radar masts etc lowered. If being transported by road, I think it well worth the expense of having your boat shrink wrapped, this saves road dirt and potentential pilfering. You can have a zip incorporated for inspection as well.

I can only speak from personal experience, having the documents for the escorting vehicle from Santander to here, and complying (as far as possible) with t&c's led to a smooth transit from UK to Portugal. The boat also arrived in immaculate condition as it was shrink wrapped for the journey, and better still a day earlier than predicted

Regards to all

Adrian

 

[jfm]

Gentlemen,
What you say in terms of paperwork may be the case if transporting your yacht by sea. If you are transporting by road then it is advisable to have as much documentation as you possibly provide for your transporting company. When I had my 'coracle' transported by road via Santander ferry then by road through Spain and Portugal the transporting company asked me to provide a copy of the VAT invoice, boat registration certificate and Bill of Sale. These may not be needed but if asked for by an officious customs officer then they can 'smooth the path' and facilitate ongoing transport of your pride and joy with the least possible aggravation.

In regard to preparation for transport a lot of companies terms & conditions ask you to drain down you water tanks, and fuel tanks. The former is easy the latter not so , therefore you travel with the minimum amount of fuel in your tanks. Also, canopies must be removed, gas disconnected, radar masts etc lowered. If being transported by road, I think it well worth the expense of having your boat shrink wrapped, this saves road dirt and potentential pilfering. You can have a zip incorporated for inspection as well.

I can only speak from personal experience, having the documents for the escorting vehicle from Santander to here, and complying (as far as possible) with t&c's led to a smooth transit from UK to Portugal. The boat also arrived in immaculate condition as it was shrink wrapped for the journey, and better still a day earlier than predicted

Regards to all

Adrian

Sure, but i speak from personal experience too, in shipping boats WITHOUT Vat-paid paperwork, with no major difficulties. I don't object to your shipping a boat with VAT-paid status, and I agree you would have a smoothed path if you did. Indeed, I am sure that if you give all your money to the tax authorities you will always have a very smooth path with them. I am merely taking issue with MBY's saying it is necessary to have VAT-paid paperwork

 

[Adrianwool]

Well, perhaps MBY should change required, to advisable in respect of VAT paid status, and no, I am not so foolish as to hand over all my money to the tax man!.

Also nobody doubts your experience in transporting your vessels without VAT paperwork, I just believe in driving down the road of least aggravation regarding officaldom.

Kind regards

Adrian

 

[jfm]

Well, perhaps MBY should change required, to advisable in respect of VAT paid status, and no, I am not so foolish as to hand over all my money to the tax man!.

Also nobody doubts your experience in transporting your vessels without VAT paperwork, I just believe in driving down the road of least aggravation regarding officaldom.

Kind regards

Adrian

Will you please explain why it is "advisable" to pay VAT when you don't need to? Loads of non VAT paid items pass thru ports every day, including the very ships that carry the yachts shown in the MBY article

If you wish to pay VAT to give you a path of least resistnace when dealing with officials that is perfectly fine. You are free to do that, as I said before. But in advising others it's appropriate to be straighter with them, and not describe what are merely choices that you have made as generically the best thing to do. So, if being neutral, you should tell folks that they can pay the VAT and have a very easy one hour with customs. Or tell them not to pay the VAT (legally) and have to do some more paperwork and have a more difficult 90mins with customs. There are many, like you, who choose the former and they are free to do that. But there are many others who will find the (say) 200k VAT saved on a 1mill boat quite a good return on the extra 30mins. All I'm asking here is that people are advised in a neutral manner, and not told "this must be done" when it's optional, or "this is best/advisable" merely becuase you found it best for your particular circumstnaces and preferences

 

[Adrianwool]

Will you please explain why it is "advisable" to pay VAT when you don't need to? Loads of non VAT paid items pass thru ports every day, including the very ships that carry the yachts shown in the MBY article

If you wish to pay VAT to give you a path of least resistnace when dealing with officials that is perfectly fine. You are free to do that, as I said before. But in advising others it's appropriate to be straighter with them, and not describe what are merely choices that you have made as generically the best thing to do. So, if being neutral, you should tell folks that they can pay the VAT and have a very easy one hour with customs. Or tell them not to pay the VAT (legally) and have to do some more paperwork and have a more difficult 90mins with customs. There are many, like you, who choose the former and they are free to do that. But there are many others who will find the (say) 200k VAT saved on a 1mill boat quite a good return on the extra 30mins. All I'm asking here is that people are advised in a neutral manner, and not told "this must be done" when it's optional, or "this is best/advisable" merely becuase you found it best for your particular circumstnaces and preferences

Let me clarify a few points

1). My point on the use of the word advisable was, if your vessel was VAT paid, then it is perhaps advisable to have the paperwork to hand.

2). I am not trying to advise people, the purpose of the forum, so I though was to recount ones own experiences, not offer definitive advice.

3). If you are moving a boat from one area of the EU (for example the UK) and proposing to keep it in another EU country I would be intrigued to know how you can avoid paying VAT on it, as VAT is a tax applicable EU wide.

4). If one is to remain absolutely netural in offering advice them surely you come to a situation where you need to say your choices are, a, b, c, et.al and allow the reader to perm any one from three / four / five etc choices.

5).Sure I arranged what was best for my personal circumstances, is it reasonable to assume that is what you would do for yourself?

 

[jfm]

Let me clarify a few points

1). My point on the use of the word advisable was, if your vessel was VAT paid, then it is perhaps advisable to have the paperwork to hand.

2). I am not trying to advise people, the purpose of the forum, so I though was to recount ones own experiences, not offer definitive advice.

3). If you are moving a boat from one area of the EU (for example the UK) and proposing to keep it in another EU country I would be intrigued to know how you can avoid paying VAT on it, as VAT is a tax applicable EU wide.

4). If one is to remain absolutely netural in offering advice them surely you come to a situation where you need to say your choices are, a, b, c, et.al and allow the reader to perm any one from three / four / five etc choices.

5).Sure I arranged what was best for my personal circumstances, is it reasonable to assume that is what you would do for yourself?

Ref 1, fine, but you're now assuming the boat is already VAT paid. If that's the case, then of course the easiest way to cross a frontier is just to show the VAT-paid paperwork. My point was that MBY were saying you need VAT paid ness to ship a boat and it's only that I'm disagreeing with. So we were at cross purposes. No worries.

Ref 2, I see no prob in the forum offering advice . There are plenty of folk here very expert in various things (IT, Latestarter on diesel engines, etc)

Ref 3, I'm sure you would. Would take a long post though

Ref 4, yes in a perfect world. But even in an imperfect world it's important imho for posters and journos to refrain from saying "you ought to/must do X" when the actual facts are that ther is no compulsion and the poster/journo merely chose or would choose to do X

Ref 5, yes agreed. That's what I mean in #4. Each should do what suits his personal circs. For many that means not paying VAT on a boat and consequently going thru a few extra hoops when shipping it across a border, and that option deserves equal billing with the "pay the VAT" option. I think we are in violent agreement

 

[BartW]

3). If you are moving a boat from one area of the EU (for example the UK) and proposing to keep it in another EU country I would be intrigued to know how you can avoid paying VAT on it, as VAT is a tax applicable EU wide.

Oh that's an easy one;
Moving a boat in EU does NOT automatically induce having to pay VAT !

If you mean you want to avoid paying VAT at purchase of a boat, also thats not so difficult there are a few way's to do that.

Adrian I am afraid you'r sinking deeper and deeper in the swamp !

 

[Adrianwool]

Oh that's an easy one;
Moving a boat in EU does NOT automatically induce having to pay VAT !

If you mean you want to avoid paying VAT at purchase of a boat, also thats not so difficult there are a few way's to do that.

Adrian I am afraid you'r sinking deeper and deeper in the swamp !

Please tell me how to do this, I could then afford my Dale Nelson (if VAT free), if its a bit tricky then please PM me.

I am not trying to 'sink deeper into the mire' only trying to represent an honest personal view, by exchanging dialogue.

Kind regards

Adrian

 

[BartW]

Please tell me how to do this, I could then afford my Dale Nelson (if VAT free), if its a bit tricky then please PM me.

I have bought my boat on a small company that I have setup for a.o. marine and diving activity's. The boat is bought in Austria, from a official austrian company. I didn't pay any VAT !
even If I bought in Belgium from a dealer, I could have recovered the VAT that I had to pay.
Everything is completely legal, no secrets, and the boat is officially registered in Belgium.

If you involve a charter company, or a company in another EU country other creative but legal solutions are possible.

 

[jfm]

I have bought my boat on a small company that I have setup for a.o. marine and diving activity's. The boat is bought in Austria, from a official austrian company. I didn't pay any VAT !
even If I bought in Belgium from a dealer, I could have recovered the VAT that I had to pay.
Everything is completely legal, no secrets, and the boat is officially registered in Belgium.

If you involve a charter company, or a company in another EU country other creative but legal solutions are possible.

Yes indeed, and IoM offers a similar program to austria (and it's a similarly well-trodden path). And there are some completely different methods, also perfectly legal and well used but not written up on www. This stuff doesn't belong on open forum though has been and can be shared privately among forum members who are buying new boats. So long as the forum doesn't link to FB and Twitter (ref the Lounge thread)

 

[MapisM]

So long as the forum doesn't link to FB and Twitter

ROTFL, you're not meaning that the various EU fiscal authorities need to read FB to be aware of these methods, are you?
Not all of them are that dull!
The one and only reason why these possibilities still exist is that the cross-border coordination between them is a farce.
Though I'm not sure this situation will last in the next years, but that's another story...

 

[kcrane]

But there are many others who will find the (say) 200k VAT saved on a 1mill boat quite a good return on the extra 30mins.

A day rate of £3.2m would be quite nice.

Correct me if wrong, if you don't pay the VAT you don't save £200k per se, you avoid having an extra £200k tied up in the boat. N'est-ce pas correct?

 

[jfm]

A day rate of £3.2m would be quite nice.

Correct me if wrong, if you don't pay the VAT you don't save £200k per se, you avoid having an extra £200k tied up in the boat. N'est-ce pas correct?

Yes in general you're correct K. Though if you spend a lifetime owning boats as many do here itks tantamount to an absolute saving. Plus it depends on the details and type of boat: in some cases it is a true saving I wd argue

 

[jfm]

The one and only reason why these possibilities still exist is that the cross-border coordination between them is a farce..

I don't agree that mapism. Most of the vat saving structures for yachts function under the laws of just one country. They do not work because of the failure of tax authorities to coordinate internationally

The french commercial program, 18 month TI, and the italy/france/malta leasing all work because each of the countries has enacted the vat saving rules. It's completely wrong to say these structures take advantage of bad coordination by tax authorities

The dutch leasing does rely on a cross-border structure but imho those structures dsn't work and are merely a product of bad tax lawyers. I've always said that on here and generally

As for the future, are you sure? The new place of supply rules for boat charter, that took effect in EU countries 1.1.10, creates a whole new way to buy a boat vat free and use it in france, for example. I'd say the trend for the future is that it's getting easier to buy a vat-free boat!

 

[MapisM]

the italy/france/malta leasing all work because each of the countries has enacted the vat saving rules. It's completely wrong to say these structures take advantage of bad coordination by tax authorities

Yup, for these structures, it's wrong.
As I understood, IoM and Austria were the examples being discussed...

 

[kcrane]

Yes in general you're correct K. Though if you spend a lifetime owning boats as many do here itks tantamount to an absolute saving. Plus it depends on the details and type of boat: in some cases it is a true saving I wd argue

Plus I guess you 'save' the depreciation on the VAT element.

 

[jfm]

Yup, for these structures, it's wrong.
As I understood, IoM and Austria were the examples being discussed...

OK, see your point. IoM is a one-country scheme, though with the new VAT rules effective 1.1.10 it has just become an even better 2-country scheme for folks who boat in French waters. Austria-Benelux is a 2-country scheme, as you say