Maximum wind speed for racing?

[BlueSkyNick]

I'm referring to simple round-the-cans stuff, not offshore.

The current forecast is for 30+ knots in the Solent on Sunday.

The unwritten rule seems to be that if the committee boat can hold its position on the anchor, racing is run and it's up to the skippers to participate or not.

This is better than the Race Officer deciding to abandon racing and leaving some skippers feeling hard done by.

At what point is not worth the effort of going out at all?

(Not that I have a vested interest or anything! )

 

[rwoofer]

Certainly raced my old 707 in 35 knots in the solent. We were often one of the first classes to be stopped from racing and I think 35 was probably more than the race officer anticipated - great fun though - 16.5 knots downwind in a 23 footer, yeeeeeharrrrr!

 

[Searush]

Nice sheltered area, carry the appropriate amount of sail, presumably an experienced crew - what's the problem?

But, I wouldn't be bothered to go out for a race in any conditions. So what do I know? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Cornishman]

An interesting question. Put yourself in the position of the race officer and ask yourself the same question, bearing in mind that you will be criticised by somebody whatever decision you arrive at.
Been there, and done it!

 

[savageseadog]

At Liverpool as I remember the maximum wind speed for racing was set at 30 knots. This was done because of a number of fairly serious incidents and by setting a measurable limit the OOD was above criticism. I think it was felt that there could be a "duty of care" situation, a club could potentially held liable whatever disclaimers there might be in the race rules. At the end of the day the club is organising the race therefore could be morally and possibly legally liable. The other factor is that could come into play is the River Mersey is not the open sea.

 

[Neraida]

A couple of years ago we were taking part in a winter series in Southampton Water, and one Sunday morning, it was pretty windy. Sotonmet was registering 45knots, with gusts to 55. We went out to have a look, but once past the dockhead we were heeling so much under bare poles we decided it was too dangerous to race and went back to our berth.
The race went on, with only 4 boats. I wrote to the then Rear Commadore (Sailing) expressing concern that the conditions were dangerous and that the race should be "scrubbed" as so few of us were able/daft enough to take part.
The reply I got was along the lines of "you small boats get the advantage in light airs, this just evens it up a bit" and quoting the committee boat anchoring "rule"

No mention of the danger...

 

[phatcat1]

I would tend to look at the overall conditions, rather than just wind strength.

A constant 30 knots in flat water may be ok, but 30knts gusting 40!, or add a strong swell/waves/fast running tide can make even 20knts of wind become difficult.

30 knots and predicted to drop vs 30 knots and predicted to rise, again, two totally different situations!

As race officer you have a duty of care to the racers but also your staff!

If you feel the conditions are dangerous, or could become so, or if you have any doubts about the ability of any of the crews, you should postpone/cancel!

What safety cover do you have!

(with most yacht racing there isn't any!- usually the RNLI!) What would they say if you sent a fleet out in poor conditions!

If you feel it is dangerous, you must cancel, be bold, explain your reasons - and stand by them!!! especially againt the gung-ho crews who would go out all weathers ( and eventually become a statistic at sometime!).
Remember, there will actually be far more people supporting you than against in those conditions!

An extra race can alwys be addded at some other time!

You are OOD - Take Charge - ITS YOUR CALL & REPONSIBILITY.

 

[ex-Gladys]

The RAce Committee shouldn't deicde. The participation decision is that of the skipper, and he is responsible for assessing his and his boat and crew's capability in the conditions.

The way "society" is going it's not a difficult leap of the imagination to see a boat get seriously damaged or something and the Race Committee get taken to court under the argument "you put the race on therefore you decided it was safe"... Woe the day...

 

[Robin]

Weather forecast on BBC this morning said gusts up to 70mph on Sunday so if Lechwe is the committee boat I hope you have a suitable anchor as approved by the fora advisory panel, complete with'chum' - and don't forget to fly your ball!

 

[Neraida]

I was more concerned that it made a mockery of the series, as the race was not "fair" as most skippers decided that the safety of their boat and crew was more important (only one discard allowed in that series).
Retrospectively however, I think it was pretty sad that those who did go out probably did so because they knew the field was very small and they were going to get "a result" provided they sailed the course...

It is probably not a coincidence that a relative of the RCS was racing and, shock horror, won... or am I being cynical again?

During the following series two multihulls "flipped" in "tough" conditions. I don't think either of them sued the club!!

 

[DJE]

Lechwe, Western Solent, 30 knots. This is all starting to sound a bit familiar. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Also grave danger of starting and anchoring thread. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Of course if the committee boat skipper decides it's too dangerous for people to be working on deck then that lets the race oficer off the hook nicely.

 

[Oldhand]

Perhaps we should wait until Sunday for the answer! Wind forecast chart is currently for 50kt sustained in the Channel, add the W. Solent funnel effect and I fear the committee boats won't be keen to go out and only those who can afford damage will want to attempt to race.

 

[awol]

The last race I was in that PEYC cancelled for weather was last year during the winter series. The morning race was run with a rising gusting wind and the forecast for the afternoon was for even more so the (shore-based) committee decided to cancel. We actually won the morning race, relatively stress free, no spinnaker, full genoa and main downwind, a couple of rolls and slabs upwind and were pee'd off with the cancellation to the point where we went sailing anyway (storm jib + 3 slabs). What struck me though was the effect the morning had had on the other guys - the boats that just tank us in light weather. Some of the crews looked completely knackered.
So as a man with a heavy, non-broaching (unless I make an arse of it) boat, I would let the skippers decide.

 

[BlueSkyNick]

Spot on Oldhand - I will check the forecast early in the morning and wonder down to the club.

Its all very well having an understanding that the deciding factor is the committee's boat ability to hold her station, but that becomes irrelevant if the skipper can't get the committee boat out of the marina !!

 

[BlueSkyNick]

[ QUOTE ]
Weather forecast on BBC this morning said gusts up to 70mph on Sunday so if Lechwe is the committee boat I hope you have a suitable anchor as approved by the fora advisory panel, complete with'chum' - and don't forget to fly your ball!

[/ QUOTE ]

grib.us is showing up to 48knots, but only 30 in the Solent - not sure I can take that seriously for once - being a SW its going to come through Hurst at a fair old blow.

I've flown my ball every week so far - one of the crew knows he doesnt get his first cuppa until it has been hoisted. I don't have another two to go with it, and certainly do not wish the need to arise!

 

[Cornishman]

No skipper can pull that one at our club. They are all briefed from time to time that the race officer will provide a course, a start and will time their finish but whether they go out on to the course or not is entirely up to them.
We do get, very rarely, one yacht in any division who does a 'sail over' just to get the points but they are generally cold shouldered by the rest when they come ashore.

 

[flaming]

I'm very heavily in the "if the committee boat can anchor safely then racing should be run" camp. As it says in every sailing instructions ever printed "It is the skippers sole responsibility to decide to race, and to decide to continue racing". The max wind I've ever seen on a start line was 30kts gusting to 35. At the time I was pretty scared, but about half way up the first beat I realised we were capable of not only coping with the conditions but racing as well and my brain switched back from survival to looking for shifts and tracking the fleet.

If race officers start imposing hard rules on wind limits it will gradually erode the strong wind skills of the sailors in the fleet. I think this was seen earlier in this winter series (the hamble one) when they started racing in 25 knots for the first time in ages and some boats really struggled. The boats that were better sorted and had at least a backbone of skilled crew coped fine and had an absolute blast, chances are that the next time racing starts in that breeze most of the fleet will have learnt valuable lessons and cope much better.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

I agree with that... but prefer the slight variation.... "if the committee boat feels that they can anchor safely then racing should be run".... this reduces the risk of a small number of skippers putting pressure on the committee boat skipper to go out when he/she would rather not do....

 

[bbg]

Agree. I've started lots of races in over 20 knots, a few nearer 30, and one memorable one in over 35 (in which only two boats from the fleet of 15 went out). That last one got stopped on the second beat when the windward mark drifted down through the start line.

The factor for me would be whether the Race Committee can run the race safely - anchoring themselves, and sending out boats to lay and retrieve the marks. They also have to set the course with the conditions in mind - probably a much longer start line so boats have lots of room.

 

[Racecruiser]

Interesting reading the contributions. The white fleet (SB3 etc) tend to get called off way before black fleet and usually there is a pretty good reason if race committes abandon for black fleet - and I think they do have a duty of care if a reliable forecast is really horrible and wind/tide makes it unlikely they can anchor and operate ribs. Mind you you sign that it is your decision to participate when you enter.

One thing I feel is overlooked by some is true wind vs apparant - 30 kts plus boat speed plus a bit of tide will be nearer 40 on the wind and that is a lot. I'm pretty sure folk often talk in apparant!

Another is gusts/lulls - a mean of 30 kts plus gusts (plus boat speed plus tide) really is a lot!

If I was entered for Hamble on Sunday I would be planning to stand the crew down late on Saturday if the forecast is still as expected (mind you I think the tides are neap so that helps a bit).

Oh and if you do go - get a slab or two in and you should go faster without destroying the mainsail.

Did someone say gybing? Full bore on a surf to reduce the apparant is the answer but can we always get it right?