Masthead floats at sea: obvious benefit, or deadly mistake?

Seajet said:
The float was on a separate dedicated external halliard, similar to a burgee halliard but stronger and running through a well fitted block, if you'd bothered reading previous posts.
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Read all of them on this thread and this is the first time you have posted this.:mad:

If you want a sailing CV which you seem to always give when put under pressure I was an active Scorpion class fleet captain from 1972 to 1985.......I owned and raced three different boats during this period and both

raced and extensively cruised offshore with my wife and eventually with my kids.

I never had a problem recovering single handed from a full inversion whilst my crew held the bow.

Just stand one foot on the upturned gunwhale one on the chine and pull on the centreboard.

Centreboards were usually rigged with a line to prevent them from fully lifting as we used to find on very fast three sail reaches we would be seriously embarassed if it did.

I go back to my earlier post and suggest the need for a 4mm external haliard is ridiculous. Just do what the sailing schools do and fit your choice of milk bottle, fender, balloon or whatever before you leave the dinghy park.

This is far more effective at preventing an inversion than the minimal assitance it will give once fully inverted. By the time you have swum around and pulled it to the top, your mast will have completely filled up with water.

One thing nobody has commented on and I remember very well is the effect that a mast full of water can have on the time of recovery from full inversion.. In some cases lighter helms couldnt scoop the crew as they needed the crew weight to help lever the boat upright or retire and get the support boat to lift the tip of the mast for them.

But there again I was no lightweight nor a fairy:p
 
TSB240 said:
One thing nobody has commented on and I remember very well is the effect that a mast full of water can have on the time of recovery from full inversion...
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Never mind that you just reminded me of the different ways water can squirt out of the mast after full inversion :(.

The cadet mast with hollow rivet that aimed at the crew no matter where he sat.

Was it Scorpion with large with ish section deck stepped? where it came out quickly buy the bucket load at quite a rate? again aimed at the crew?
 
The disposition of buoyancy in the hull has a big effect on the ease of righting. Boats like the 420, 505, Laser, etc with all their buoyancy in side tanks tend to float very high and as a result, are inclined (pun unintended!) to turn turtle. Also it can be bit of a struggle to reach the centerboard whilst swimming.

Other boats like my old International 14 and the Merlin-Rocket used to float low on their sides, with the centreboard level with the water. They tended not to turn turtle. Sure they scooped up half the ocean when you righted them, but good transom flaps on the Merlin and the double floor on the 14 meant they drained rapidly.
 
Isn't it surprising that mast-manufacturers themselves haven't offered partial solutions or slight improvements, by adding partially capped or bulwarked sections to masts, either to keep water out or slow its ingress?

I suppose it's easy for those who sail and capsize in deep waters to write off this thread as fuss about not very much, but having lost a mast caught in the seabed, I'd like to do all I can to prevent it recurring.

I was just surprised to read how much masthead buoyancy is sometimes required to prevent inversion.
 
Seajet said:
We used the extra external halliard and float to ' hoist down to the masthead ' years ago on the Scorpion and Osprey
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I doubt a 2 pint milk bottle would survive 6 or 7 m under the water. It would just collapse.

Harvey Bowden tried self inflating life jackets on the mast head of his Firebird cat, Orien. They failed and were quickly collapsed as the mast tip went under. Later he used a mast head float to stop turtling and a system for releasing the shrouds. In this way he could right his capsized cat.

 
I was sailing my Scorpion ( no. 921 if you're that familiar with them ) in surf in winter, 3-up, so felt we needed all the help we could get, if the boat had inverted there the mast would have interfaced with the Winner shoal, spoiling our day or possibly cancelling it entirely.

We did get some phenomenal speeds, if only I'd had a Go-Pro camera fitted as people do nowadays !

When we emerged from the surf after a few goes, a cruiser going past gave us a round of applause, though if it had been the RNLI I think it would be meant ironically...

I didn't find the Scorpion difficult to right, though obviously it's harder singlehanded; in fact the Osprey has much more inclination ( pardon the pun ) to invert.

If I ' give a sailing CV ' it's so people know what level I am talking from, and I value your doing the same.

While the Osprey is without doubt - to me - the best dinghy I have ever sailed, the Scorpion of the 1960's Westerly era is the prettiest, possibly the most achingly beautiful dinghy ever made; I fell in love at the boat shows, then as soon as I got my apprenticeship she was the first thing I bought...
 
Well the idea of a milk bottle or other masthead float is not to let the masthead get 6-7 metres underwater !

I found my Contender was a real bitch at inverting, so I filled the upper mast with closed cell foam; it may have added a touch of weight in the wrong place, but I was ' cruising ' ie fast sailing but not going around a course and no rescue boat, so I was happy with any help.

Dan,

some boats have ' sealed ' masts for buoyancy, though I've always been a little sceptical when I look at the rivetted fiittings.
 
Seajet said:
...the 2 pint milk bottle is all that a ladylike boat like an Osprey requires...
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Seajet said:
I didn't find the Scorpion difficult to right...the Osprey has much more inclination to invert.
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Umm...I'm getting rather mixed signals, Andy!

There's rather dull footage here, of a Mk3 (or 4?) Osprey being deliberately capsized in Poole Harbour...


...I'm surprised at how high she floats...weren't the Mk2s provided with pierced afterdecks to prevent the boat half-sinking by the bow? This later boat doesn't look like it could flood an aft compartment, when floating so high.
 
Dan,

what I was trying to say in my befuddled way is, the Osprey is quite extraordinally stable, but when pushed too far can invert, not a problem if two-up, but could be if singlehanded, so a masthead float would be a good idea.

On the Scorpion I only fitted it when I knew we were going to do something daft like surfing the boat, and we really really didn't want the mast hitting the Winner shoal if we/ I cocked it up.
 
I think one would have problems with trying to hoist flotation devices up the mast.
I would imagine the halliard getting caught to just about everything
If one gets an inversion one does not want to waste time with this . As soon as the boat goes over get in place to right it.
Inversions do occur ( I should know) & the best tactic is to get it on its side again to prevent mast damage if dragged into shallow water by the tide. If the boat is inverted pulling a float up the mast will little to help.
What I have seen on a friends 505 was an inflated sausage shaped flotation device permanently fixed. It was very light & fixed at one end to the mast. He tells me it did help prevent inversion in the first place in most cases. However, if the wind & tide were wrong the tide would sometimes still tend drag the mast down

As for pulling a device up the mast when inverted --- bunch of fairies!!! - dream on-- go to a sailing school & learn properly if you are that bad
 
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dancrane said:
What do you mean?

Can't we discuss things here as if the bar had just opened, rather than as if it was kicking-out time?
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Only in jest.
Some people just take offence too easily
Still you have to admit that if the issue was causing a problem then there must be an element of inexperience
So saying go to a sailing school is not so silly is it?
 
Seajet said:
Well the idea of a milk bottle or other masthead float is not to let the masthead get 6-7 metres underwater !

Not the same as what you posted earlier.

"We used the extra external halliard and float to ' hoist down to the masthead ' years ago on the Scorpion and Osprey when racing in waves and strong winds."

Now lets clarify that do you actually sail with it at the mast head like the sailing schools or do you actually hoist it after inverting?

Just a yes or no answer would suffice?:)

(Prettiest Scorpions ever built was Wooden boats built by Jon Turner and the Rowsell outfit later I owned Scorpion 1275 Churcher, 1813 Stewart and 1896Jon Turner)
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Daydream believer said:
...if the issue was causing a problem then there must be an element of inexperience...
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Well, that's true. I haven't ever been alone at sea aboard one of the biggest dinghies, in a stiff breeze, when she inverted and needed 180º righting...

...and I'm quite keen to learn how best to prevent having to find out!

Several patent masthead floats are available, at silly prices. I'm not too proud to hoist a big empty squash-bottle, if its buoyancy is sufficient.
 
dancrane said:
Well, that's true. I haven't ever been alone at sea aboard one of the biggest dinghies, in a stiff breeze, when she inverted and needed 180º righting...

...and I'm quite keen to learn how best to prevent having to find out!

Several patent masthead floats are available, at silly prices. I'm not too proud to hoist a big empty squash-bottle, if its buoyancy is sufficient.
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Have you not considered joining a yacht club-- or are you in one already
The information you can pick up in a short time can be invaluable
Of course a lot depends on the person. Some people find clubs very " clicky" (i suspect ours can be but i have been a member for50 years so i do not notice it)
I can understand this but one has to push oneself into the spirit of things
 
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If it's not too confusing for some people, I've tried both float bottle buoyancy at the masthead - tied to the main headboard - and hoistable up / down.

The hoistable job looks less embarassing but the permananet job is less hassle.

No I don't have photo's or the signature of a judge, could probably get one of the crew to verify.

And my Westerly Scorpion was definitely the prettiest, curved laminated tiller and all that; for some reason modern Scorpions have lost the look.
 
Even when learning, I never found the need for a masthead float. You soon learn to be quick onto the board if you go for a swim! People who "can't" right an inverted dinghy are often doing something wrong...either fighting nature in terms of wind/waves/tide, not being patient enough, or they've left the kicker on or something.

That said, I do see some advantages in very shallow water or if you were on our own, however the thought of a boat blowing away faster than you can swim would be pretty terrifying.

I've also sat on the upturned hull of my bright yellow Cherub at the 2007 Nationals in the Firth of Forth while a F8-9 squall blew thorough. It actually blew the sea flat, but it was a hell of a lot safer to sit on a stationary inverted hull than the thing blowing around all over the place (that little incident actually made Ceefax at the time!)
 
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