Mast to boom goosneck problem

[ProDave]

Hi all, new forum member, novice sailor and new boat owner, so go easy on me.

I've just bought our first boat, an 18ft trailer sailor and I'm just going through checking things out.

The first problem is the mast to boom goosneck fitting. What I have on the boat is clearly not right, there's either something missing or something broken.

The first picture shows what's on the end of the boom. Some sort of plastic moulded insert.

The second picture shows what's on the mast, a stainless steel pin on a swivel.

Now the pin will fit in the hole on the end of the boom, and that's how I rigged it to try out the sails (boat still on trailer on drive) but it's not right as there's nothing holding it in, and the pin is a very sloppy fit in the hole, so clearly that's not right.

I'm a novice sailor, and this is my first boat so not sure what I need to buy or make to make this work properly. All I know is the boom should be free to swivel and should not fall off.

 

[Martin_J]

It looks to me like a standard dinghy style gooseneck. There is never anything specifically holding the boom to the mast in a dinghy - it is the sail and (and more importantly a constant pull on the kicking strap (vang)) that keeps the boom from dropping out.

 

[ProDave]

Hi and thanks for your reply.

So this is a dinghy goose neck. Do you think it's up to the job for this boat, or is it just the previous ownerd bodge and should really be changed? To start with at least we only intend sailing in light winds while we build up experience.

If this gooseneck is okay to keep, then I want to do some modifications. Perhaps you can comment on my plans.

Firstly to make some form of strap to go from the boom, around the mast and back to the boom to keep the boom on the gooseneck.

Secondly, the rear end of the boom is only supported by the sail (as you would expect if the boom is intended to come off) but I don't want that. I want to install another stay from the top of the mast to the rear end of the boom.

In other words i'm trying to change the way the boat is (with it's detachable boom) to how every other boat I have seen is rigged, so that when the main sail is lowerd, the boom remains in place.

Your further comments on the suitability of this gooseneck and my proposed alterations are much appreciated.

 

[lw395]

I sail dinghies as well as yachts.
What you have looks like two slightly incompatible dinghy parts.
I would sleeve either the pin or the hole to get a reasonable fit.

You can either:
Rely on the kicker tension to hold the boom on
Tie a line or strap around the mast to the tack of the main
or drill through the boom and gooseneck for a pin.

On my two racing dinghies, we often have very little kicker, but the boom only falls off the gooseneck if you either capsize or drop the main.
So we don't rely on the kicker tension to keep the boom on, although this was normal for dinghies 25 years ago. One of my dinghies has a 3mm dia split pin to retain the boom, the other uses a strap around the mast.

You sometimes see boats where the mainsheet tension pulls the boom aft, in this case you will need a decent system to hold the boom on. Otherwise it's just for when you drop the main.

If you use a strap around the mast, be aware it can go very tight as the boom drops, possibly damaging the sail if you don't ease the clew outhaul first.

 

[ianat182]

As mentioned the gooseneck itself does not seem to be the correct one for the boom 'mortice'. If you do decide to replace it you need a sliding gooseneck that fits into the luff groove with a thumbnut to secure after pulling down on the luff. The shank of the gooseneck is usually a squared end section closest to the mast and a circular 'tenon' to enter the boom. The gooseneck is then pulled downward to tension the luff of the main and the thumbscrew tightened at the desired position. You won't need any other straps because the topping lift you are going to install will apply thrust along the boom length to hold it in when lowering the sail. From the photo I guess that the luff of the sail is fed into the luff groove rather than plastic sliders,however if you do use sliders you will need to fix a small plastic plate to stop them popping out as you lower the sail; a bridge across the opened luff of the mast ,above the gooseneck fitting.
Its a nice looking boat you have there, and I wonder if it the same as one we were asked to identify a week or two ago, I don't think we got an answer, or I missed it!

Welcome to the forum, there's lots of experienced sailors here all with various opinions and favourite anchors etc, mostly helpful!

ianat182

 

[emsworthy]

Just my opinion but from the photographs it seems the gooseneck pin and "socket" are matched. As others have said it will be the tension from the kicker/vang that will keep the two mated. I would say that it looks up to the job.

It also seems from the photos you've posted that the mainsail foot runs in a slot in the boom rather than being loose footed. If this is the case then once you hoist the main up the luff groove, assuming there is a pin or cunningham/downhaul at the tack (ie mast) end of the foot this should make it even more unlikey the boom will pull back far enough to come off the pin on the mast.

As to your second question regarding a second "stay" to the masthead. What you are talking about is called a topping lift and is typically run just like a second main halyard but made off on the aft end of the boom, normally in a slightly thinner line although it can double as a spare main halyard so may be worth sticking to the same size. As you say, you would normally tension this before letting off the main halyard and this then stops the boom crashing into the cockpit. It is also used when reefing for the same reason. It depends on what fittings you have on you masthead. If you have internal halyards (ie they run up the inside of the mast) then you may already have a spare sheave facing aft for this purpose. Alternatively you may need to shackle a block to the masthead somewhere and run the topping lift externally and make it off at the mast base on a cleat or jammer.

Hope this helps.

 

[snowleopard]

What you need to remember is that an 18 foot cruising boat carries a lot less sail than a comparable sized dinghy. I imagine yours has something like half the sail area of my International 14. For such a small rig you can expect to have a dinghy-style rig which is cheap but not as convenient as a 'proper' yacht rig.

You could stop the boom falling off the gooseneck with a lashing or even drilling through to insert a pin.

To hold up the boom it would be normal to have a topping lift but I doubt there is a sheave at the masthead for one. On a dinghy you would drop the sail, detach the boom from the gooseneck and lay it down in the boat. The alternative is a boom crutch to drop it into when the sail is lowered. That would keep it out of your way and allow you to rig a tent/awning over the top - essential if you want to sleep on board.

 

[ProDave]

Thanks for all the very constructive advice.

Yes she's a Frolic 18, and I remember the thread asking about it. She was built in 1983 by Martin Creasey Boat builders. But Googling Frolic 18 or Martin Creasey reveals next to nothing, so I can't think many were ever made. I couldn't answer that thread as I hadn't registered with this forum then.

Our choice was made mainly because she was available at the right place at the right time. We're in the North of Scotland and there's not so many boats for sale up here. Had I wanted a boat on the South Coast I could have chosen from many, but I considered that way too far to go and tow a boat home from.

I was given a copy of a review on this boat from Yachting and boat Owner, September 1982 where basically they liked the boat and summarised it as "she's been designed as a mini yacht, not a dinghy with a lid" which I think sums it up well. She will sleep 4 in the cabin and there's even space for a porta potti, so no need tor a boom tent.

Yes the main sail that's on her at the moment does run in a slot in the boom, and is not the most convenient thing to raise. As well as the 2 sails on her in the picture, we have a bag of spare sails which I've not really checked out yet, but one of them does have plastic feet to run in the mast, so I might swap over to that one and see if it's easier to raise / lower. It's good to do all this experimenting on dry land until we work it all out.

I'll look at installing a topping lift then try the boom again, but if I'm still not happy the boom is going to stay put, I'll install a strap. Though the alternative of a boom crutch is also a good idea, particularly as I was thinking of making something similar to rest the mast on while preparing it to be raised so one tool might do both.

As suggested further up. I'll look at sleeving the rather worn looking hole in the end of the boom to make the pin a more snug fit.

Thanks for all the great help.

 

[MoodySabre]

The fitting on the mast has a purposeful looking hole in the end of it. With the sail not fitted in the groove, can you see a matching hole in the casting that is in the boom and through which a pin is located to hold it all together?

 

[KenMcCulloch]

Just to add a little to some of the useful suggestions already made.

Point 1 is to say that the boom end fitting does not look as though it's the original fitting in that boom - there appear to be some old fastening holes so it may well be that the gooseneck fitting and the boom end are not a perfect match.

Point 2: You can buy an Allen brand sliding gooseneck fitting which has a square section in the 12mm or so closest to the mast, which may fit your boom better and will have the added advantage that it's easier to tension the luff of the sail with a sliding gooseneck.

Point 3: A luff rope 'pre-feeder' may help with hoisting the main. There are several types, for example this one
http://marinestore.co.uk/SS05-44.html
but you should look for one that will suit your mast. It goes below the entry to the mast groove and smooths out the path of the sail making it possible for a person with only two hands to hoist the sail.

Point 3: I sailed a 20' dayboat with a boom pretty much like yours for several years and you really don't need a topping lift. You do need to remember that the boom can be a little unruly when hoisting and dropping the sail but so long as you are prepared for that it really shouldn't be a problem. Add a topping lift by all means if you really want too but in my view it's an unnecessary complication on a sail this size.

Cheers

 

[ProDave]

however if you do use sliders you will need to fix a small plastic plate to stop them popping out as you lower the sail; a bridge across the opened luff of the mast ,above the gooseneck fitting.

I'm going to the chandlers later this week. Is there a proper name for such a fitting, or is this just something you make yourself (sounds easy enough to make)

The fitting on the mast has a purposeful looking hole in the end of it. With the sail not fitted in the groove, can you see a matching hole in the casting that is in the boom and through which a pin is located to hold it all together?

There wasn't a matching hole. But there is now. I've sleved the pin from the goosneck so it's now a snug fit in the end of the boom, and drilled said hole to drop a pin in to secure it. As it's a little awkward now to remove this securing pin, I now consider this fixed to the boom, so now if I want to remove the boom, I remove the pin that joins the 2 halves of the gooseneck.

So that pretty much fixes the boom as I want it.

Point 1 is to say that the boom end fitting does not look as though it's the original fitting in that boom - there appear to be some old fastening holes so it may well be that the gooseneck fitting and the boom end are not a perfect match.

I think you are right, but as discussed I think it's sorted how I want it now thanks to all the help here.

Point 3: I sailed a 20' dayboat with a boom pretty much like yours for several years and you really don't need a topping lift. You do need to remember that the boom can be a little unruly when hoisting and dropping the sail but so long as you are prepared for that it really shouldn't be a problem. Add a topping lift by all means if you really want too but in my view it's an unnecessary complication on a sail this size.
Cheers

You are quite right that it's not needed, but I would still like to add one. Manly because I am used to seeing boats with their sails down and the mast sitting nicely still supported, not at some funny angle looking like something is not right.

 

[ianat182]

To make the slide retainer you need to obtain a piece of aluminium or stainless strip 3" long by 1.5" wide. At the RH end of the strip drill 3 - 5mm holes so as to form a slot and finish with a small fine Swiss file. Bend the strip at 2" from the slot end in a curve to suit the mast shape and so that the left end of the strip covers the luff groove. Mark the position of the slot in pencil, then drill and tap a hole to suit a wing-screw or butterfly-screw.
You can use a self tapping screw but means you will need to use a screwdriver to undo the retainer when removing the sail sliders.

The gooseneck fitting I mentioned is called just that ,often a forged stainless job and has a clampscrew and a small backing plate,the backing plate fits inside the luff groove and is tightened by a wing-screw at the position you require the luff tension to be set at. It is a dinghy fitting found at your local chandlers, if you were local to me here the Chandlery Barge at Bursledon would have second hand ones at a fraction of new price. A location in your Profile helps with sourcing bits for you.

Is your boat a Gem ?

ianat182

 

[KenMcCulloch]

You are quite right that [a topping lift] it's not needed, but I would still like to add one. Manly because I am used to seeing boats with their sails down and the mast sitting nicely still supported, not at some funny angle looking like something is not right.

Are you talking about a topping lift (holds the end of the boom up) or a backstay (provides support for the mast, runs from the masthead to the transom)? A topping lift does nothing to support the mast indeed it puts a small load on it. If your boat doesn't already have a backstay, but has aft-swept spreaders (what's called a marconi rig) then it almost certainly doesn't need one.

 

[Lakesailor]

I think he meant to say boom, not mast.
If you are leaving the boom on and flaking the sail for storage it's virtually essential to use a topping lift. Mine runs through a simple bullseye fairlead screwed to the mast.
I have just altered my topping lift to be adjustable at the mast as I have the same "detachable" boom problem. The tension on the topping lift is usually enough to stop the boom sliding off the gooseneck pin. Relying on the kicking strap isn't always the best method as the very time you need it to work, like when pulling the gooseneck down the kicking strap loosens. Trying to fit a boom back on a gooseneck with the main up and a fresh breeze blowing is a right game of soldiers.
I may drill the boom and gooseneck pin to use an "R" clip or something similar to avoid these odd moments.

....and yes I do know the topping lift is running the wrong way in this shot. That's how it was when I bought the boat and I've changed it round now.

 

[ianat182]

I'v just read in again and am more informed as to your boat,and location!

As Ken mentions, you can fit a snap hook on your backstay to support the boom when lowering the mainsail; I have just that on mine, Talurit clipped to a short strop of wire on the backstay.
It must be released before hoisting the main, and fitted during the lowering to do the job,and will apply the pressure to keep the boom-end secure when the boat is left too.

ianat182

 

[ProDave]

Are you talking about a topping lift (holds the end of the boom up) or a backstay (provides support for the mast, runs from the masthead to the transom)? A topping lift does nothing to support the mast indeed it puts a small load on it. If your boat doesn't already have a backstay, but has aft-swept spreaders (what's called a marconi rig) then it almost certainly doesn't need one.

Yes typo, I'm talking about a topping lift to support the BOOM, there's already a backstay (of course)

I have just altered my topping lift to be adjustable at the mast

....and yes I do know the topping lift is running the wrong way in this shot. That's how it was when I bought the boat and I've changed it round now.

That's interesting. That's not quite how I had imagined it. I was going to just drop a "line" (what's the proper term for the stainless steel rope used for the mast stays) straight from the top of the mast down to the boom, with a turnbuckle (or bottle screw) in line at the boom end for adjustment. I hadn't thought of taking it over a pulley and down the mast for adjustment. Is that a better method than what I was originally thinking of? All I can think of is a greater range of adjustment.

 

[Lakesailor]

Yep. It means you can slack off the topping lift once the main is up and let it hang loose. That way you can set the boom at the right height to get tension in the luff without the topping lift stopping the boom dropping. The other alternative is to have a snap shackle or carbine hook on the topping lift/boom and disconnect it once the main is up. Then you have to store the topping lift somewhere by either taking it back to the mast or clipping it to a short strop on your backstay. It also means you have to reconnect the topping lift to the boom before lowering the sail. This can be a laugh as you need to slack off the mainsheet to lift the boom to reach the topping lift (you'd be mad to set the boom at head-cracking height when moving about the cockpit) and if it's a bit windy and there is a swell you will be dancing about in the cockpit with the boom on your shoulder trying to attach the topping lift - without letting go of it and seeing it blow overboard and round to the bow. (Yes, I've been there, too many times).

In my opinion a topping lift left attached and adjustable at the mast is the best solution on a small boat (mine is 17 ft and the previous two were 18 ft).

 

[ProDave]

All sounds like a good argument Lakesailor. It means a bit more "work" for me to do at the top of the mast (fitting another puley) and it will have to run on the outside of the mast (like yours) rather than inside like the main ropes, but worth it.

 

[ProDave]

It also seems from the photos you've posted that the mainsail foot runs in a slot in the boom rather than being loose footed.

Yes as already discussed the sail that was on the boom does just run in the slot.

However, I've been sorting through the bag of spare sails that came with the boat, and found a spare main sail with the little plastic feet sewn on. So having made a stop to go in the bottom of the mast slot, I tried raising this sail, and it's so much easier.

Only trouble is, this spare sale is several feet taller than my mast

So having determined running the sail up on those little plastic feet (excuse my terminology) is so much easier, is it easy to convert the sail that fits to use these? Looking at them, I'm guessing the feet are pretty cheap, but is sewing them onto the sail a DIY job or is it best left to a sail maker? (if so rough costs?)

 

[ReggieK]

Have you considered a boomstrut. This goes from the base of the mast to the boom and does the same job as a topping lift.
You can purchase fibre glass ones.