Mast position

[Wansworth]

Saw an interesting French boat it had the mast much further aft so manageable from companion way then it had two head sails a fairly large staysail on a roller and a jib set from a small bowsprit also on a roller bit like those proud cats ,any idea what the keel configuration could look like?

 

[LittleSister]

The Fjord 28 motor-sailer (Scandinavian, IIRC) has that mast arrangement. Here's a picture (not mine) that includes the keel, plus another in action.

 

[Wansworth]

Nothing new under the sun!

 

[LittleSister]

The Mirror Offshore has similar (at least as originally designed by Van De Stadt, left hand drawing), but is so short you might not notice.

The Mk. 2 (an adaption by another builder, I believe, shown in right hand drawing) positioned it more conventionally (but less conveniently, given the lack of side decks, IMHO).

 

[Laminar Flow]

The Fjord 28 motor-sailer (Scandinavian, IIRC) has that mast arrangement. Here's a picture (not mine) that includes the keel, plus another in action.
View attachment 88097
View attachment 88098

I have been told that they sail better, a lot better, than they look, but it's a very odd concept.

 

[Wansworth]

Quite like the idea but maybe a staysail and jib instead of a massive Genoa but then there maybeproblems with staying the staysail unless there where runners?

 

[LittleSister]

Quite like the idea but maybe a staysail and jib instead of a massive Genoa but then there maybeproblems with staying the staysail unless there where runners?

Why not go the whole hog, then - a staysail schooner?

 

[Laminar Flow]

Quite like the idea but maybe a staysail and jib instead of a massive Genoa but then there maybeproblems with staying the staysail unless there where runners?

I suspect the top third of that really narrow main is probably quite ineffective in the turbulence behind that big black mast? Don't get me wrong, I'm actually a big fan of weird boats; it gives me hope that people are still willing to walk off the trodden path.

 

[LittleSister]

I have been told that they sail better, a lot better, than they look, but it's a very odd concept.

According to a 1980 Motor Boat and Yachting group test of motor-sailers in which the Fjord 28 featured:
'Coupled with the unusual styling and superstructure is the unusual rig. A vast roller-reefing foresail and a minuscule main flies in the face of established beliefs for cruising rigs. It also needs big two-speed winches to cope with that area but, coupled with an efficient underwater shape, the Fjord pointed higher and sailed faster than the other boats [in the group test] when going to windward, and was able to establish a considerable lead in the race we ran.

Where the rig does fail, however, is off the wind. On the return passage [from Poole] to Lymington, the Fjord was left behind by all the others, perhaps indicating that her performance is a direct reversal of the accepted motor-sailer norm. She should probably be sailed upwind and motored down.'

 

[Wansworth]

According to a 1980 Motor Boat and Yachting group test of motor-sailers in which the Fjord 28 featured:
'Coupled with the unusual styling and superstructure is the unusual rig. A vast roller-reefing foresail and a minuscule main flies in the face of established beliefs for cruising rigs. It also needs big two-speed winches to cope with that area but, coupled with an efficient underwater shape, the Fjord pointed higher and sailed faster than the other boats [in the group test] when going to windward, and was able to establish a considerable lead in the race we ran.

Where the rig does fail, however, is off the wind. On the return passage [from Poole] to Lymington, the Fjord was left behind by all the others, perhaps indicating that her performance is a direct reversal of the accepted motor-sailer norm. She should probably be sailed upwind and motored down.'

.now there are code0 downwind sails,still the headsail just looks too big

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Aft A frame or wishbone masts were a thing. For a time.

 

[Laminar Flow]

Aft A frame or wishbone masts were a thing. For a time.

Based on the fact that jibs are 1.5 times more efficient than a sail behind a mast. Still doesn't, in this instance, get rid rid of the drag of all that rigging, not to mention the extra mast and top weight.

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

Based on the fact that jibs are 1.5 times more efficient than a sail behind a mast.

I can accept that a mainsail is 2/3 as good as a jib per unit area, but surely that's principally because its lift vector ain't so handy?

 

[Laminar Flow]

I can accept that a mainsail is 2/3 as good as a jib per unit area, but surely that's principally because its lift vector ain't so handy?

It has to do with the interference caused by the mast. The greater the mast dimametre, i.e. the larger the cross section, the lower the lift. C.A. Marchaj, Sailing Theory & Practice, Page 96 and Pierre Gutelle, The Design of sailing Yachts, page 138.
This effect becomes more pronounced at the top of the sail as the apex narrows and the relationship between sail cord and mast diametre worsens.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Well as my LM has weather helm such that tiller pilot has to use multiple stern pivot positions on different tacks, I tried a heavy narrower mainsail sail intended for a ketch. It improved weather helm and made very little speed difference to what is a slightly tubby (ie slow) boat. As still some weather helm considering larger foam luffed genoa possible set on short bowsprit (work suspended due to coro). This would be 166% overlap if not on bowsprit but 125% on bowsprit.

The advantages are that in gusty weather I will reef main early before I fear for my safety going out of cockpit and then furl genoa as needed. Seems a little way towards the Fjord 28 arrangement. We will see how it goes

 

[Stemar]

before I fear for my safety going out of cockpit

This is why I led all the lines involved in reefing and furling the main back to the cockpit. Maybe not as easy with an LM as a Snappy, but I'd definitely give it a serious think.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

This is why I led all the lines involved in reefing and furling the main back to the cockpit. Maybe not as easy with an LM as a Snappy, but I'd definitely give it a serious think.

LM27 has roller reefing and to change to slab reefing from cockpit would be hard to set up, and need new sail.
I cant afford and dont trust in mast reefing either, I have had sails jamb over the years and heaven help you if that happens in mast

Bigger genoa gives more bangs for buck and is simpler, its just a matter of balancing it with enough main and thats not hard as when genoa unfurled but with no main it still has mild weather helm to my astonishment. Obviously changes with part furled genoa and no main.

As a ketch owner I am used to dumping mainsail in bad weather, its just a matter of getting boat balanced on nil or miniscule main, though in the LM case without the benefit of mizzen. As LM hates being canvas free and rolls like a good un we have storm trisail just for motoring or heaving too in squally weather. It balances the genoa fairly well if sheeted in hardish.

If I had lee helm that would be a different and much more serious problem

 

[Laminar Flow]

Well as my LM has weather helm such that tiller pilot has to use multiple stern pivot positions on different tacks, I tried a heavy narrower mainsail sail intended for a ketch. It improved weather helm and made very little speed difference to what is a slightly tubby (ie slow) boat. As still some weather helm considering larger foam luffed genoa possible set on short bowsprit (work suspended due to coro). This would be 166% overlap if not on bowsprit but 125% on bowsprit.

The advantages are that in gusty weather I will reef main early before I fear for my safety going out of cockpit and then furl genoa as needed. Seems a little way towards the Fjord 28 arrangement. We will see how it goes

Having had similar problems on our CW32, I noticed several LMs with sophisticated rudder up-grades. At east one in Denmark and two in Holland. The type is, called a Flettner rudder and involves an additional hinged flap at the end of the rudder fin. Additionally, these rudders had end plates top and bottom. Being sensitized to steering problems on our own boat, I took some pics of these modifications; I'll happily dig them out if anyone is interested.
My question to LM owners is: is the type of steering problems you have experienced on your LM typical for these boats or is this simply a one-off issue?

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Having had similar problems on our CW32, I noticed several LMs with sophisticated rudder up-grades. At east one in Denmark and two in Holland. The type is, called a Flettner rudder and involves an additional hinged flap at the end of the rudder fin. Additionally, these rudders had end plates top and bottom. Being sensitized to steering problems on our own boat, I took some pics of these modifications; I'll happily dig them out if anyone is interested.
My question to LM owners is: is the type of steering problems you have experienced on your LM typical for these boats or is this simply a one-off issue?

Part of problem is that on LM27 the small plate rudder is ok for motoring but not big enough to balance so as to keep tiller position reasonable under sail. I would be very interested in rudder upgrades and did jokingly discuss with boatyard weather bolting a large plate onto existing rudder would do (its hollow so wouldnt).

So Interested !

Other LM owners seem to have no problem or maybe dont mind. Our mast and rake standard and it would be hard to make significant change.

As the boat is chubby its very buoyant but not a greyhound and slower than our Westerly Pentland which has similar sail/displacement ratio. I always like more canvas and bigger genoa might kill two birds with one stone.

 

[Laminar Flow]

Part of problem is that on LM27 the small plate rudder is ok for motoring but not big enough to balance so as to keep tiller position reasonable under sail. I would be very interested in rudder upgrades and did jokingly discuss with boatyard weather bolting a large plate onto existing rudder would do (its hollow so wouldnt).

So Interested !

Other LM owners seem to have no problem or maybe dont mind. Our mast and rake standard and it would be hard to make significant change.

As the boat is chubby its very buoyant but not a greyhound and slower than our Westerly Pentland which has similar sail/displacement ratio. I always like more canvas and bigger genoa might kill two birds with one stone.

Hi, I"m back. Sorry, it took me a minute to locate the files.

I have written an article for PBO, which they will be publishing on the 16th, on the modifications I did to our CW to solve our steering and weatherhelm problems, if you are interested. (I won't go into too many details as of yet so as not to steal their thunder.)

The LM is not the only MS that has too small a rudder for sailing purposes. Ours was 5% of lateral plane, which is decidedly too small for a long keel sailboat.

The CW 32 has without doubt the worst deadwood/rudder configuration I have ever seen, with a flat plate, stall prone rudder and a 5-7" wide flat deadwood. Compared to this the LM is a marvel of hydrodynamic sophistication. Even the most ardent supporters of the brand claim that to successfully tack a CW it must be traveling at between 40% to 60% of its maximum nominal speed, i.e. 2-3kts. In any kind of sea you have to be going a lot faster than that and some have been known to start their engine to make it happen.

Having solved our steering problems, we also increased our SA; one would not have been possible without the other.
Unfortunately, I saw these LM modifications too late, otherwise I might have considered something similar; I think it is rather clever. In effect it generates an asymmetric foil and likely doubles lift.
As I said, I have seen at least three or four like it, so I suspect it might be commercially available. Unfortunately I was not able to talk with any of the owners.