bedouin
Well-Known Member
I was taught the same - and going one stage further to tie the bosuns-chair onto the halyard rather than using a shackle if possible
Mast climbing - Ouch!
- Thread starter Talulah
- Start date
Little Rascal
Well-Known Member
Speaking with my climbing hat on:
A Carabiner or Karabiner (never heard it spelt with an A in english climbing speak) should never be used to attach to a harness - always tie on directly with a threaded double figure of eight or a bowline with a stopper knot.
If sustained load is expected you're best to use a screwgate krab and don't ever load it on the gate, only on the long axis. A krab or shackle loaded in the wrong direction will often fail at much lower than it's rated load.
You can't use 'climbing rope' as a halyard - it's dynamic, ie designed to stretch and absorb energy. You'd need a static rope for a halyard obviously - dyneema is used for slings and stuff in climbing but check the load ratings.
Old rope and UV damage could easily be a problem. No climber would subject his rope to the abuse a halyard gets. A standard single rope is 11mm, bigger than most small boats halyard.
The point where a rope fails is where it meets a sharp edge under tension - using a shackle may well be too small a radious and weaken the rope at that point.
No system under load is stronger than it's weakest point be that a shackle or a sheave or whatever - think carefully before you commit to it and always have a second safety line!
A Carabiner or Karabiner (never heard it spelt with an A in english climbing speak) should never be used to attach to a harness - always tie on directly with a threaded double figure of eight or a bowline with a stopper knot.
If sustained load is expected you're best to use a screwgate krab and don't ever load it on the gate, only on the long axis. A krab or shackle loaded in the wrong direction will often fail at much lower than it's rated load.
You can't use 'climbing rope' as a halyard - it's dynamic, ie designed to stretch and absorb energy. You'd need a static rope for a halyard obviously - dyneema is used for slings and stuff in climbing but check the load ratings.
Old rope and UV damage could easily be a problem. No climber would subject his rope to the abuse a halyard gets. A standard single rope is 11mm, bigger than most small boats halyard.
The point where a rope fails is where it meets a sharp edge under tension - using a shackle may well be too small a radious and weaken the rope at that point.
No system under load is stronger than it's weakest point be that a shackle or a sheave or whatever - think carefully before you commit to it and always have a second safety line!
Seajet
...
Completely right.
When I mentioned climbing kit for going up masts I should have been clearer I meant hardware ( I find a screwlock karabiner's good for headsail sheets too, - I use separate hanked headsails - somewhat surprisingly the sheets and stainless karabiner don't flail and brain me, while bowlines are prone to shaking loose ).
I certainly wouldn't fancy a stretchy climbing rope for a halliard - and in my little view bosun's chairs are death-traps, modern marine mast harness jobs are far superior.
When I mentioned climbing kit for going up masts I should have been clearer I meant hardware ( I find a screwlock karabiner's good for headsail sheets too, - I use separate hanked headsails - somewhat surprisingly the sheets and stainless karabiner don't flail and brain me, while bowlines are prone to shaking loose ).
I certainly wouldn't fancy a stretchy climbing rope for a halliard - and in my little view bosun's chairs are death-traps, modern marine mast harness jobs are far superior.
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colvic987
Well-Known Member
i tend to use a double figure of eight directly onto the climbing belt loop meant for primary rope attachment, i use a full seat type abourist climbing belt with leg loops.
As last post mentioned most bosums chairs dont look suitable enough in the use of attachment for the rope, they all look to small to me.
Lady Campanula
N/A
There are several issues lurking in the background.
That failed spinnaker snapshackle was probably intended for use with a swivel component, not shown, and certainly not for the use to which it was put. One wonders about the manufacturer's published Safe Working Load. I'm also certain that the manufacturer, while concerned, would point out that the snapshackle was not intended for use where 'safety of life' was involved and that consequently it was being misused.
I recall that the OP operates his boat as a sailing school, and that this incident may have occurred while operating commercially. That raises Health and Safety Executive issues....
....and insurance issues.
I certainly appreciate Talulah's candour in posting us all a 'heads up', and reflect that there are many hoary old practices we use on small craft that are known to be fundamentally unsafe by today's standards - with better alternatives available to us.
This 'going up the mast' business is just one of them.
That failed spinnaker snapshackle was probably intended for use with a swivel component, not shown, and certainly not for the use to which it was put. One wonders about the manufacturer's published Safe Working Load. I'm also certain that the manufacturer, while concerned, would point out that the snapshackle was not intended for use where 'safety of life' was involved and that consequently it was being misused.
I recall that the OP operates his boat as a sailing school, and that this incident may have occurred while operating commercially. That raises Health and Safety Executive issues....
....and insurance issues.
I certainly appreciate Talulah's candour in posting us all a 'heads up', and reflect that there are many hoary old practices we use on small craft that are known to be fundamentally unsafe by today's standards - with better alternatives available to us.
This 'going up the mast' business is just one of them.
Little Rascal
Well-Known Member
Just a slight clarification re: climbing harnesses:
Some have a single attachment point but most have separate waist belt and leg loops.
With the latter the figure of eight or bowline should be tied into both the waist belt and legloops not just into the belay loop which links them. It's easier to show than explain but basicly you follow the belay loop round through both it's attachments, making the belay loop effectively redundant...
It's shown here:
http://www.outdooradventureclub.com/newsletter/belayloop.htm
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Graham_Wright
Well-Known Member
We use a Compass bosun's chair for demonstrations. The attachment to the hoisting halyard is via a D shackle. As soon as any load is applied, it capsizes putting all the load on the webbing bunched up in a corner. The stress concentration is worrying. I reported this to Compass ten years ago. They have done nothing despite reminders.
Use a bowline straight on the webbing.
Some climbing harnesses I have found quite comfortable but the chair does have advantages.
Use a bowline straight on the webbing.
Some climbing harnesses I have found quite comfortable but the chair does have advantages.
ProDave
Well-Known Member
On the subject of harnesses, I have an aerial riggers harness, unlike a climbing harness, this wraps around the whole body including over your shoulders and under your crutch.
It has a decent fixing point to tie or shackle the safety line to as well.
It has a decent fixing point to tie or shackle the safety line to as well.
Billjratt
Well-Known Member
Ignoring the knots and going back to the problem...The failed device in the picture looks wrong to me.
It almost looks as if it's home-made, rather than being a proper casting with webs, but the through-bolt size is what really matters I suppose, what diameter is it and what was the rated load of the device, and, crucially, how old is it...?
Edit : block failures feature large in mast-climbing lore, so maybe we have to choose our halliard more carefully - any in-mast or through-mast haliard can't drop the engineer on the deck, why use the spinny?
It almost looks as if it's home-made, rather than being a proper casting with webs, but the through-bolt size is what really matters I suppose, what diameter is it and what was the rated load of the device, and, crucially, how old is it...?
Edit : block failures feature large in mast-climbing lore, so maybe we have to choose our halliard more carefully - any in-mast or through-mast haliard can't drop the engineer on the deck, why use the spinny?
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ms.lau
Active Member
i agree with the several other posts re. snap shackle / karibiner - they are not the same at all! for optimum safety set 2 (screwgate) karibiners, facing in opposite directions, rope through both. full body harness is safest to avoid falling out if you fall upside down. i've wondered about using climbing rope for going up the mast but haven't tried it - don't want to spoil it - yes, we climbers are much more 'precious' with our ropes!
dt4134
Well-Known Member
For those of you who wonder... why not use a "locked" bowline directly onto the bosun's chair suspension?? I use two halyards both bowlined to the chair and use 2 different spin locks on 2 different winches.
Failure from the top of my mast is likely to kill the poor "schmuck" who was up there...
That's the way I thought everyone did it. The snap shackles are good enough to lock the ends to the standing parts after tying the bowlines, not for taking the full weight of the person going up the mast.
Snap shackles do go from time to time when attached to spinnakers and I certainly wouldn't want to trust my life or a crew member's life to one.
Ruffles
Well-Known Member
A minor comment.
I'm sure most people draw their halyards to inspect them every year. I'm equally sure most people pop up the mast every year to inspect it. So it makes sense to check the halyards before going up the mast.
I once discovered the sheath had failed in a main halyard inside the mast. I assume it must have caught on a rivet.
I'm sure most people draw their halyards to inspect them every year. I'm equally sure most people pop up the mast every year to inspect it. So it makes sense to check the halyards before going up the mast.
I once discovered the sheath had failed in a main halyard inside the mast. I assume it must have caught on a rivet.
LadyInBed
Well-Known Member
Hard to tell from pic, but the Snatch Block looks to be quite old!
It may have suffered from misuse and abuse in its life, maybe some bending on the swivel?
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
Yes, my best guess is that it's a multiple origin fatigue failure, probably caused by bending maybe exacerbated by a section change. Can't say more without a photo in focus.
jimi
Well-Known Member
as a climber.. I agree! Accident waiting to happen IMHO!
dje67
Well-Known Member
Same ...
My routine is the same, although I also wear a harness-type lifejacket when in the bosuns chair and clip the standing-end shackles onto the lifejacket ring. Might be a bit OTT, but it means that there is no single point of failure, even if the chair were to fail. You get one shot at falling from the top of the mast....
My routine is the same, although I also wear a harness-type lifejacket when in the bosuns chair and clip the standing-end shackles onto the lifejacket ring. Might be a bit OTT, but it means that there is no single point of failure, even if the chair were to fail. You get one shot at falling from the top of the mast....