Massive beginner question

[Saexon]

Sorry if this is hopelessly vague and open ended, but i've wanted to live aboard a yacht for years and have decided it's time i need to find out how practical it is for me to actually do it. Essentially i'm after any information and advice on what sort of qualifications/licenses i would need, what sort of fees i would have to pay out (i know mooring fees will play a role, any others?) and also any advice on the best place to start out?

I am almost clueless on this subject, but i'm not lazy. If you point me at any resources that answer these sort of questions i'll happily read through them. In general i'm all ears for any sort of information or advice.

Matt

 

[Tranona]

Welcome to the forum.

Just scroll down this forum and you will find the subject comes up regularly and you will find answers to all of your questions fairly quickly.

 

[Sandyman]

Welcome

Plenty of books out there on the subject. Here is a good start:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb...up and sail&sprefix=Sell+up+and+Sail,aps,1616

 

[lpdsn]

Sorry if this is hopelessly vague and open ended, but i've wanted to live aboard a yacht for years and have decided it's time i need to find out how practical it is for me to actually do it. Essentially i'm after any information and advice on what sort of qualifications/licenses i would need, what sort of fees i would have to pay out (i know mooring fees will play a role, any others?) and also any advice on the best place to start out?

I am almost clueless on this subject, but i'm not lazy. If you point me at any resources that answer these sort of questions i'll happily read through them. In general i'm all ears for any sort of information or advice.

Matt

You don't need qualifications/licences (except for small things like having a radio licence).

You do need the knowledge and competence, and getting qualifications is one path to that.

You can vary the costs depending upon the boat you have and what you do to it and where you keep it, but it will cost more than you think. You need to be keen to live aboard a small yacht. I've got a 22 year old liveaboard-size boat (43') and I reckon I've spend between about £13,000 and £6,500 per year, depending upon what I've done to the boat each year. That includes some major upgrades and the boat is in much better condition than when I bought her, unlike my bank balance, but I could easily have spent a lot more. On top of that, If I'd tried the same thing on the south coast of England I'd probably be looking at £5,000p.a. more.

Best place to start is to go sailing on someone else's boat. Cheapest way is probably to try a few local clubs or marinas and to get to know people who need crew (virtually everyone is happy to find another sociable, keen crew member so experience won't be an issue). Mix and match your experience.

Good luck. There's enough to learn to keep you going for the rest of your life, no matter how young you are now.

 

[srm]

Looking at the live aboard/cruising boats here in Praia da Vitoria, Azores. On almost all of them the owners have been doing maintenence work this autumn. One boat left for Portuguese mainland as they needed some engineering work doing.

Unless you have very deep pockets you need to aquire a whole range of practical skills to keep your boat seaworthy. Repairs / maintenence are a part of the live aboard / cruising life. Even if you can afford to have the work done for you it is a good idea to learn as much as you can to make sure that you do not get ripped off and the jobs are done correctly.

Sailing school, both shorebased and practical courses would be a sensible start. As suggested above spend time on other peoples boats, and as wide a range of different types as possible. Also, offer to help with fitting out etc. Once you have something like 'competent crew' experience you could try a site like Crewseekers to get more experience. (This is not an endorsement as I have never used them).

Just one warning, sailing / cruising can be addictive. I bought my first cruising boat in 1975 and have always owned at least one since then and have lived on board at various stages of my life.

Just make a start, and see how things go.

 

[laika]

Are perhaps the key questions "Where do you want to live in the short/long term?" and "what's your initial/ongoing budget?"

 

[AndrewB]

You just have to do it!

 

[Tony Cross]

Sorry if this is hopelessly vague and open ended, but i've wanted to live aboard a yacht for years and have decided it's time i need to find out how practical it is for me to actually do it. Essentially i'm after any information and advice on what sort of qualifications/licenses i would need, what sort of fees i would have to pay out (i know mooring fees will play a role, any others?) and also any advice on the best place to start out?

I am almost clueless on this subject, but i'm not lazy. If you point me at any resources that answer these sort of questions i'll happily read through them. In general i'm all ears for any sort of information or advice.

Matt

We had the same sort of idea about 15 years ago. We started by talking to the people at an RYA sail training school to find out what training paths were available and how we should start. Once you get on the water at a sail training school you'll meet others with boats and you'll start to learn not just how to sail but about boats and boating. Once you have some basic qualifications and a bit of experience you'll be able to crew for others. We met people through the sailing school who were looking for causal (i.e. weekend) crew and through sailing with these people we met still more boat owners looking for crew. After a couple f years we'd built up quite a set of contacts so we could be sure of a sail on several weekends during the summer. We also found out from our own experiences aboard what boat layouts workd for us and what didn't. We also met people who were prepared to come with us when we started looking at boats. Pretty soon we felt confident enough to judge boats on our own.

The boat we bought was lying in Palma Majorca and, using all the experience we'd gained we were able to tell that she was worth making an offer on and arranging a proper survey. That was over ten years ago and we've been living aboard her ever since.

IMO your best first step is to talk to a sail training school and start the RYA sail training courses.

 

[Gwylan]

Determine the difference between live aboard and sailing. They are different!

It can be fun, but it can strain the exchequer sometimes. Cheap it is not!

Costs in 3 areas, boat maintenance, boat mooring and actual living.

Write off the purchase price of the boat. Do not expect to see that money again. Any value when you come to sell is a bonus. Boats depreciate like cars.
Make sure you have a contingency fund, for the really big, unexpected job that is better done than ignored. Budget £5k

The laws of economics apply loosely to moorings. You get what you pay for and you pay for what you get.
A cheap mooring will probably feed through into more expense on maintenance, because the boat is not so well protected from scripts or scroats, the weather or run away dredgers.

A brisk stroll to the showers on a summer morning can easily make the retreat from Moscow seem an afternoon in the park when winter arrives. Choose carefully!

Always keep the boat as if you are going to sail away in the morning. This means no potted or pot plants in the cockpit and only the basics to stow before departure.

Go sailing at least once a month, it shows up what needs fixing and reminds you that the boat is not a floating caravan.

Do not watch day time TV, drink on your own before 1830 and be very careful about lending tools or charts.

 

[Nostrodamus]

The one thing I would add. Learning to sail and going out with as many different skippers and on as many boats as possible will give you a wealth of experience. Some skippers are better than others but you will always learn something from them, even if it is not how to do it. If you find a skipper you like please ask him if you can help over winter when the boat is hauled out. Living aboard is not just how to sail but how to service, fix and repair things yourself. The more you can do the more money you will save and you will do a better job. I will also bet the skipper will be more than please of a second pair of hands, especially if they are willing to learn.
I have just put a blog on our website below about living on a boat on a very low budget. There is also one about how to practice at home for living aboard a boat.
Any questions or help I can give just message me anytime.

 

[blueglass]

Determine the difference between live aboard and sailing. They are different!

It can be fun, but it can strain the exchequer sometimes. Cheap it is not!

Costs in 3 areas, boat maintenance, boat mooring and actual living.

Write off the purchase price of the boat. Do not expect to see that money again. Any value when you come to sell is a bonus. Boats depreciate like cars.
Make sure you have a contingency fund, for the really big, unexpected job that is better done than ignored. Budget £5k

The laws of economics apply loosely to moorings. You get what you pay for and you pay for what you get.
A cheap mooring will probably feed through into more expense on maintenance, because the boat is not so well protected from scripts or scroats, the weather or run away dredgers.

A brisk stroll to the showers on a summer morning can easily make the retreat from Moscow seem an afternoon in the park when winter arrives. Choose carefully!

Always keep the boat as if you are going to sail away in the morning. This means no potted or pot plants in the cockpit and only the basics to stow before departure.

Go sailing at least once a month, it shows up what needs fixing and reminds you that the boat is not a floating caravan.

Do not watch day time TV, drink on your own before 1830 and be very careful about lending tools or charts.

Some good points but I disagree about completely writing off the initial purchase price.
If you buy a brand new boat - maybe the depreciation is comparable with cars, but on older boats you can usually fare much better. I have bought boats 7 - 10 years old, kept them 8 years and sold for the same price I paid. What you never get back of course are the thousands spent on maintenace and updating.
I have a mobo but would be surprised if the same rule doesn't apply across the board.

 

[Tranona]

I have a mobo but would be surprised if the same rule doesn't apply across the board.

May have been the case in the past, but in the last couple of years prices have typically fallen 20-25%, particularly on older boats.

 

[blueglass]

May have been the case in the past, but in the last couple of years prices have typically fallen 20-25%, particularly on older boats.

Guess I was a lucky. sold two years ago for 1K more than I paid for the boat in 2008.

 

[Tranona]

Guess I was a lucky. sold two years ago for 1K more than I paid for the boat in 2008.

Count your blessings!

 

[blueglass]

Count your blessings!

Always!

 

[Saexon]

Sorry for the delay answering, i didn't bookmark this forum so had to search for it again.

Welcome

Plenty of books out there on the subject. Here is a good start:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb...up and sail&sprefix=Sell+up+and+Sail,aps,1616

Thanks. I've ordered the 'Sail away' book at the local library and will have a lookise when it comes in.

You don't need qualifications/licences (except for small things like having a radio licence).

Really? I was under the impression that you needed some RYA skipper licenses to even be able to use the boat on the rivers of this country?

You can vary the costs depending upon the boat you have and what you do to it and where you keep it, but it will cost more than you think. You need to be keen to live aboard a small yacht. I've got a 22 year old liveaboard-size boat (43') and I reckon I've spend between about £13,000 and £6,500 per year, depending upon what I've done to the boat each year. That includes some major upgrades and the boat is in much better condition than when I bought her, unlike my bank balance, but I could easily have spent a lot more. On top of that, If I'd tried the same thing on the south coast of England I'd probably be looking at £5,000p.a. more.

I live in London, so presuming the £5,000 tag applies here too, £18,000 per year in maintenance seems like a hell of a lot. Is that typical or does that include a lot of optional upgrading?

Best place to start is to go sailing on someone else's boat. Cheapest way is probably to try a few local clubs or marinas and to get to know people who need crew (virtually everyone is happy to find another sociable, keen crew member so experience won't be an issue). Mix and match your experience.

Good luck. There's enough to learn to keep you going for the rest of your life, no matter how young you are now.

I've emailed a local club about coming down sometimes just as crew, guess we'll see where this one leads.

Looking at the live aboard/cruising boats here in Praia da Vitoria, Azores. On almost all of them the owners have been doing maintenence work this autumn. One boat left for Portuguese mainland as they needed some engineering work doing.

Unless you have very deep pockets you need to aquire a whole range of practical skills to keep your boat seaworthy. Repairs / maintenence are a part of the live aboard / cruising life. Even if you can afford to have the work done for you it is a good idea to learn as much as you can to make sure that you do not get ripped off and the jobs are done correctly.

I've worked as a handyman and kitchen fitter before, so my practical skills are good. Obviously i would need to learn what needs doing and how to do it, but that would come with experience. Hopefully.

Sailing school, both shorebased and practical courses would be a sensible start. As suggested above spend time on other peoples boats, and as wide a range of different types as possible. Also, offer to help with fitting out etc. Once you have something like 'competent crew' experience you could try a site like Crewseekers to get more experience. (This is not an endorsement as I have never used them).

Just one warning, sailing / cruising can be addictive. I bought my first cruising boat in 1975 and have always owned at least one since then and have lived on board at various stages of my life.

Just make a start, and see how things go.

Cheers. Just looked at the RYA courses and there seem to be multiple different ones for every level of competency, all of them £500+. Obviously i wouldn't want to start shelling out that sort of money on something that might prove to be of no use. Guess this comes back to getting more practical experience and figuring out what courses i need for myself though.

Are perhaps the key questions "Where do you want to live in the short/long term?" and "what's your initial/ongoing budget?"

Short term, around London. Longer term i don't know, i have a history of travelling which is part of the reason for wanting to live aboard a yacht. And budget wise, i'm actually hoping to find out what entry level budget would be with these sort of posts right now.

 

[Saexon]

We had the same sort of idea about 15 years ago. We started by talking to the people at an RYA sail training school to find out what training paths were available and how we should start. Once you get on the water at a sail training school you'll meet others with boats and you'll start to learn not just how to sail but about boats and boating. Once you have some basic qualifications and a bit of experience you'll be able to crew for others. We met people through the sailing school who were looking for causal (i.e. weekend) crew and through sailing with these people we met still more boat owners looking for crew. After a couple f years we'd built up quite a set of contacts so we could be sure of a sail on several weekends during the summer. We also found out from our own experiences aboard what boat layouts workd for us and what didn't. We also met people who were prepared to come with us when we started looking at boats. Pretty soon we felt confident enough to judge boats on our own.

The boat we bought was lying in Palma Majorca and, using all the experience we'd gained we were able to tell that she was worth making an offer on and arranging a proper survey. That was over ten years ago and we've been living aboard her ever since.

IMO your best first step is to talk to a sail training school and start the RYA sail training courses.

Yeh, i'm trying to get started down that same path now. At the moment i don't know any boat owners, so the first stop is internet forums and emailing the boat clubs i find in google search. It's a small start, but it's something. Is casual crew a paid position, or is it more of a friendly sailing trip invite where you're also expected to help with the running of the ship?

Also the RYA looks to require different training courses depending on whether you're going to use sails or a motor, how much background you have, and a number of other things. I think i'd probably need more personal experience before i decided which ones i should start taking.

Determine the difference between live aboard and sailing. They are different!

It can be fun, but it can strain the exchequer sometimes. Cheap it is not!

Costs in 3 areas, boat maintenance, boat mooring and actual living.

Write off the purchase price of the boat. Do not expect to see that money again. Any value when you come to sell is a bonus. Boats depreciate like cars.
Make sure you have a contingency fund, for the really big, unexpected job that is better done than ignored. Budget £5k

I've never brought a brand new car before, so i've never been stung badly with depreciation. Completely writing off the whole cost of the boat is an eye opener though. Any rough guidelines for the 3 costs you mentioned above?

The one thing I would add. Learning to sail and going out with as many different skippers and on as many boats as possible will give you a wealth of experience. Some skippers are better than others but you will always learn something from them, even if it is not how to do it. If you find a skipper you like please ask him if you can help over winter when the boat is hauled out. Living aboard is not just how to sail but how to service, fix and repair things yourself. The more you can do the more money you will save and you will do a better job. I will also bet the skipper will be more than please of a second pair of hands, especially if they are willing to learn.
I have just put a blog on our website below about living on a boat on a very low budget. There is also one about how to practice at home for living aboard a boat.
Any questions or help I can give just message me anytime.

Cheers, that seems to be the general advice - practice crewing other people's boats until i get enough experience to know what i want. I'll gladly have a look at your blog as building things at home and doing things on a budget appeals to the self reliant/tight part of my personality.

Thanks again everyone.

 

[Sybarite]

Once you think that you have identified a boat you want to buy, charter one first if you can. This can change your perceptions.

 

[Tranona]

Cheers, that seems to be the general advice - practice crewing other people's boats until i get enough experience to know what i want. I'll gladly have a look at your blog as building things at home and doing things on a budget appeals to the self reliant/tight part of my personality.

Thanks again everyone.

You will discover that there are many different variations of "living on a boat" so you need to find out what it is that appeals to you about the idea. This, then to an extent determines how you might go about achieving your objectives. One thing you will discover very quickly is that it is difficult to combine living on a boat with a regular shore based job unless you are able to afford a reasonable sized boat and can get (and afford) a reasonable mooring in a location near to work. Almost by definition such things are expensive and in short supply.

However, as you will also discover when you scroll down this forum there are many people who buy a modest boat (£10-20k) and are flexible in where they live and or have the sorts of occupations where they are not tied to a rigid work structure. Beware that old cheap boats like this need a lot of maintenance, particularly if you also want to sail them. At the other end of the spectrum there are people whose main aim is to sail and travel and work becomes a smaller part of the equation. Helpful if you are sufficiently well financed to be able to take time out for travelling and then perhaps have some ashore time to build up the kitty.

If it is the sailing that attracts you, doing a Competent Crew course is an excellent investment. Not only will you get a fast track into some sea time, but will make you more attractive to others for crewing. Equally you might find you hate it so you can then think of something else to do.

 

[laika]

Short term, around London. Longer term i don't know, i have a history of travelling which is part of the reason for wanting to live aboard a yacht. And budget wise, i'm actually hoping to find out what entry level budget would be with these sort of posts right now.

London is tricky. Search google for threads on London marinas (the site search is rubbish, better to search google with "site:ybw.com" at the end of the search line). Getting a berth for the winter can sometimes be done, but for longer term "legitimate" residential you probably need to buy a boat with an attached berth which is expensive and not what you want if you have long term travel plans. Of course if your definition of "yacht" extends to "motor yacht" you're not limited by bridges so the possibilities are extended.

Further downstream there's Gallions Point but let's just say that didn't feel like "home" to me (although it is affordable so make up your own mind). Several forumites I think are/have been camped out on the Medway. Prices there should be more reasonable than central london / south coast.

Regarding ipdsn's cost estimates, I think those are on the high side. Marina websites have prices so you can do some research. Here's the prices for Gillingham for example:
http://www.gillingham-marina.co.uk/marina_berthing_rates.asp

Many marinas do winter deals when most people are hauled out. Some yards do deals for haul out in summer when most people are off sailing. I'm a commitmentphobe who is always going to sail to the caribbean "next year" so I juggle those deals and a month-by-month marina contract rather than taking an annual contract. Whether I slightly save or pay slightly more depends on how much of the summer I spend off sailing rather than in my "home" marina.

Our boat is slightly shorter than ipdsn's (at just over 12m). If I were on my own I'd want something smaller (closer to 10m than 11) but it's a juggling act between cost, living space and single-handed sailability.

I don't keep a record of how much I spend per year on the boat: it costs what it costs. But other than the year I bought it (which included new engine and new rigging) I doubt I spend more than £2.5k pa in maintenance excluding the occasional high value item (e.g. £5k on new sails to replace the 20 year old ones).

Don't discount other costs such as storage. If you don't have a convenient friend/relative to put your life's possessions with, storage ain't cheap and is currently costing us as much as berthing. Be sure how your mainra charges for electricity. Boats are cold and damp. Running a dehumidifier and fan heater racks up the energy consumption. With a cramped galley there's also a temptation to eat out more (why does the phrase "roaring log fire" sound so inviting?). On the plus side a 6Kg propane bottle lasts a surprisingly long time. Fortunately Internet over 3G/4G is becoming more affordable these days. Marina wifi is often unusable.