marine ventures ceases trading

[meridianyachts]

Another one down, but it seems not quite out !
Duncan Bain, a Guernsey resident formed Marine Ventures (poole) limited following the collapse of Southern Motor Boats. As Jenneau main dealers covering Poole and with additional offices in Portland (Weymouth) and Guernsey. Today Mr Bain announced that the Poole and Weymouth business had been sold but that the CI operation remains under his control and ownership.
Mr Bain further announced to amazed creditors that the new owners accept responsibility only for debts incurred after January 1st 2010 and that Marine Ventures (Poole) Limited and its associate company in Weymouth had debts of £100,000 and have ceased trading, leaving creditors and customers high and dry.
The failed company appears to have no cross guarantees from either the Channel island company or Marine Ventures limited.

 

[volvopaul]

Wow I cant see them doing any business this year then, big deal to those who are owed money, so they will have liability then for virtually nothing, yet another marine company thats been badly run and creamed off 100k off some one elses profit.

I feel for those who have done work or supplied goods, many are companies like me who are 1 man self employed who rely on getting paid on time, shame on him as hes no doubt hiding in good old tax haven Guernsey, id be over there after him if he owed me.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Another one down, but it seems not quite out !
Duncan Bain, a Guernsey resident formed Marine Ventures (poole) limited following the collapse of Southern Motor Boats. As Jenneau main dealers covering Poole and with additional offices in Portland (Weymouth) and Guernsey. Today Mr Bain announced that the Poole and Weymouth business had been sold but that the CI operation remains under his control and ownership.
Mr Bain further announced to amazed creditors that the new owners accept responsibility only for debts incurred after January 1st 2010 and that Marine Ventures (Poole) Limited and its associate company in Weymouth had debts of £100,000 and have ceased trading, leaving creditors and customers high and dry.
The failed company appears to have no cross guarantees from either the Channel island company or Marine Ventures limited.

Something wrong here. You can't sell a company that has ceased trading. Only an administrator can do that. If the company has been sold as a going concern, it is still liable for it's debts, irrespective of any guarantees from other companies or individuals and, if the company has ceased trading, Mr Bain can't sell it

 

[fireball]

You can sell company assets then wind up the company ...

 

[meridianyachts]

Spot on ! Either it has ceased trading or it has been sold, if the latter, you are right the debts go with it. Mr Bain uses the word 'business' when talking about the sale, and company when talking about debts !! He needs to explain exactly what has happened to those owed money not keep 'fobbing' them off with details of how much money he has lost in a pathetic attempt to gain sympathy from those he now says he cannot pay.

It's time all the sole traders and smaller business begin to fight our corner, I lost thousands last year, and the year before, to these dealerships who pack up one day, then re-open the next and s*d all the people owed money.

This one is shrouded in mystery as it seems obvious certain creditors, landlords, BT etc must have been paid as the offices are open and running. This appears to be placing preference to those who could close them down without any court action and leaving all other creditors to pick up huge legal costs chasing an empty bank account.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

You can sell company assets then wind up the company ...

Of course, but the report states that the 'business' has been sold, intimating that Marine Ventures (Poole) Ltd has been sold. At least that's how I read it

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Spot on ! Either it has ceased trading or it has been sold, if the latter, you are right the debts go with it. Mr Bain uses the word 'business' when talking about the sale, and company when talking about debts !! He needs to explain exactly what has happened to those owed money not keep 'fobbing' them off with details of how much money he has lost in a pathetic attempt to gain sympathy from those he now says he cannot pay.

It's time all the sole traders and smaller business begin to fight our corner, I lost thousands last year, and the year before, to these dealerships who pack up one day, then re-open the next and s*d all the people owed money.

This one is shrouded in mystery as it seems obvious certain creditors, landlords, BT etc must have been paid as the offices are open and running. This appears to be placing preference to those who could close them down without any court action and leaving all other creditors to pick up huge legal costs chasing an empty bank account.

It's possible he sold the Marine Ventures brand to another company or person but the company still remains with it's debts. Why anyone would want to buy the brand, I dunno, given that it is now associated with a failing company

 

[fireball]

Of course, but the report states that the 'business' has been sold, intimating that Marine Ventures (Poole) Ltd has been sold. At least that's how I read it

Yes - that's how most ppl will read it - but I guess what has happened is that he sold assets to the value of £100k less than he owes to suppliers- sounds dodgy at best ... but he's probably using one of the 000's of technical loopholes available....

 

[Heckler]

Spot on ! Either it has ceased trading or it has been sold, if the latter, you are right the debts go with it. Mr Bain uses the word 'business' when talking about the sale, and company when talking about debts !! He needs to explain exactly what has happened to those owed money not keep 'fobbing' them off with details of how much money he has lost in a pathetic attempt to gain sympathy from those he now says he cannot pay.

It's time all the sole traders and smaller business begin to fight our corner, I lost thousands last year, and the year before, to these dealerships who pack up one day, then re-open the next and s*d all the people owed money.

This one is shrouded in mystery as it seems obvious certain creditors, landlords, BT etc must have been paid as the offices are open and running. This appears to be placing preference to those who could close them down without any court action and leaving all other creditors to pick up huge legal costs chasing an empty bank account.

I had a similar experience a few months ago, ******** did exactly the same, tried to frighten the little peeps. I did a small claims court action against him, named him first with the name of the company second on the claim. He sent me an email saying that pointless claiming off a company that wasnt trading, I just said your names on the charge, you will get the CCJ against your name, the money was in my account within the week!!
Stu

 

[Nick_H]

Not enough detail really. He could have sold the co. and new owners are just trying it on, he could have sold trade and assets for £100k less than his liabilities, in which case the co. will be liquidated, or it could have been a pre-pack administration/sale.

None of the above necessarily mean sharp practice by the seller. In difficult times buinesses go bust, and they often find their liabilities are far greater than shown in the BS (f'rinstance redundancy costs are seldom included as a liability), or more likely that the assets are worth far less. He may have genuinely thought he could trade through it, or got hit by a bad debt, or just plain old bad luck.

 

[jfm]

Of course, but the report states that the 'business' has been sold, intimating that Marine Ventures (Poole) Ltd has been sold. At least that's how I read it

The words used mean, if written by someone who was being precise, that the business/assets of the company have been sold by the company, and not that the shares in the company have been sold by the shareholders.

 

[Resolution]

A quick free check at Companies House shows that Marine Ventures (Poole) Ltd was formerly called Aroma Care Ltd until 7/9/09 and that Duncan Bain became a director on 3/9/09. Assuming that the £100,000 reported losses were incurred during the time that he was a director, it would be interesting to know exactly when the company became insolvent, and if Mr Bain knew it was trading whilst insolvent. According to my schoolboy knowledge of insolvency law, a director of a company which continues to trade whilst knowingly insolvent can be held personally liable for debts incurred.

 

[meridianyachts]

Yup, could be, but the end result is yet again a new company starts up, in this case only a year ago, then folds (sold, transferred, whatever) all the staff are paid, rents and utility bills paid, stick up a new sign, re-employ all the staff and go again. It's not easy out there, we all know that, but every time this happens dozens of small business go unpaid, even for materials and parts used. Leaves a nasty taste and when it happens so often it eventually becomes an un-avoidable overhead so everyone's bills go up to cover the losses.

Some small business suffer 10% bad debt or thereabouts, this means everyone else has to pay 10% more for work done or the guy goes out of business because things already are very tight. If we ignore this it's just like insurance fraud, we all end up paying. In this case though it's not a crime to pay yourself whatever you like then just wind-up the business. Unless it can be prooved that the Directors continued to trade whilst knowingly insolvent, or acted illegally, they are not liable for the companies debts even if it is obvious they were responsible.

 

[kcrane]

To add to the story, a salesman from Marine Ventures, dropped us a line last week to say that Marine Ventures had been sold and under new management, now trading as Masters Marine.

 

[meridianyachts]

As I understand Masters Marine is a new venture by Richard Trafford who built up Westways into a profitable business then sold at just the right time. First impressions are that he is a very capable businessman, takes this business seriously (thank goodness) and news today about a salesman of his, relieved of his duties at the Boat Show suggests he will not be taking prisoners. If this turns out to be another Trafford success story we will all benefit.

 

[Resolution]

I used to know Richard well, back in the Jeanneau days. His approach was: first businesslike salesman, second yachting enthusiast. More effective than all the yachties playing at being businessmen. An entertaining character.

 

[meridianyachts]

I'm looking foward to meeting Richard Trafford, hopefully very soon.
As a, possibly, last post I would welcome contact from anyone else owed money by Marine Ventures as I have now full legal representation from London lawyers who will persue this matter.

 

[Nick_H]

I didn't realise from your OP that you were a creditor yourself, commiserations, and I hope you manage to get something back. If it was Mr Bain personally making these announcements, then it sounds like they're not under a court appointed administration/receivership (or the receiver would have made them). You obviously have the option of applying to the courts to have one appointed, but the first thing they do is make sure there's enough funds to pay their hefty fees, so there's even less left to go around. If you trusted Bain (and I realise that's a huge "if") you could be better to try and reach an agreement with him. If he's saying there's no funds at all for unsecured creditors then I guess it makes little difference, and you may, on principle, prefer to have a court appointed receiver involved because as part of their brief they are required to explore whether the directors have acted improperly. That, of course, assumes there are some liquid funds to pay their fees, otherwise they wouldn't take it on.

My guess is that London lawyers would advise you to go this route. If it were me, i'd want to speak to Bain first to see if there was an angle to get some of my money back before it all goes in fees.

 

[meridianyachts]

Obviously lawyers don't come cheap but if they can proove that the company was trading whilst knowlingly insolvent they can persue the directors. I have today received a letter which indicates that this may well be the case and am confident that I will receive full payment, which is why I am inviting other creditors to contact me as I will be happy to pass on all the info I have collected. I have directors full personal details and a great deal of information about the company's activities over recent months.

 

[jfm]

I didn't realise from your OP that you were a creditor yourself, commiserations, and I hope you manage to get something back.

Ditto, and commiserations and good luck Meridian

I agree Nick's point of fees. On the legal side there is devil in the detail and it's hard to see, from what you've written, precisely what has happened. Therefore hard to advise. For example in the first post you said MVPL had 3 offices, Poole, Weym and Gsy. Then you refer to Weymouth as in an "associate company", which is different from MVPL having an office in Weymouth. If the Gsy office is still running and was as you say an asset of MVPL then MVPL must have sold it to Bain or a company controlled by him. That would be a point for you to pursue him on and Aveling Barford applies (a case close to my heart; my firm was the de facto plaintiff). On the other hand if Gsy was always in an independent company (which isn't what you said) then your options are different. Sorry to be boring but don't shoot the messenger - I didn't make all these rules. Fact is, there is loads of devil in the detail

Good luck anyways

A quick look at co house shows lots happening that might be there to frustrate you and creditors

1. Company changed name 3 days ago (11th Jan) to Aromacare (wessex) Ltd
2. Mrs Bain ceased to be a director September 2009, so you may not be able to pursue her, and their combined wealth might be muchly in her name
3. A Limited company corporate director replaced her. Harder to pursue, obviously
4. But D Bain remains a director
5. D Bain personally has £150k in the company secured by a fixed and floating charge, so he is first in line to get paid in a bankruptcy. But that charge is dated sept 2009. Is that after you placed your deposit, becuase the legals become interesting if it was?

So they did lots of things since September 2009, all of which suggest they thought they had forthcoming business problems back then