marine surveying

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monkey_trousers

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thought I'd post this in here as by and large I reckon you you get a better class of nutter in here /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

this is something I've been toying with for a while, complete career change (or is that mid life crisis!) from what I do now. Been tinkering and fettling many different flavours of boaty things over the years, so though why not move it up a notch....

I've been looking at the various diplomas required etc, and don't think that'll be a problem (the learny bit that is!) & there's a few crossovers in what I do now and what I did at 'Uni' (ok polytechnic and proud of it!)

just wondered if anyone had any experience of the whole caper from starting a diploma course, institute membership through to first survey nerves!
 
As yet there is nothing to stop anybody setting up buisness as a yacht surveyor, providing insurance companies accept them that is! It is essential to carry professional indemnity insurance, which is very expensive. There are many surveyors out there who are excellent, there are also some who though they might have an engineering degree or naval architecture qualification simply have no clue whatsoever about small boats & their construction.
I think you will find there are many people chasing a limited amount of work and it will take years to get established.
 
been reading trough the course prospectus' and seen a few people that offer the distance learning option. Even if its just for the learning process and I don't actually do anything with it, it might be nice to use whats left of the old grey matter for a while

but I've also got my eye on the upcoming amends to the RCD (recreational craft directive) heading our way from our lovely friends in the EU

the demand for coding/licencing/compliance testing or whatever label they stick on it will be huge as it will affect every single boat in the country. Even if you've got a 14foot dinghy it'll still have to go through the process
 
I did the first International Boatbuilding Training College course in Yacht and Small Craft Surveying.

Details at: ibtc.co.uk
 
My experiance of surveyors over the last 20 years is that good ones are getting few and far between, and the freshly qualified surveyors, when it comes to wooden vessels, don't know their arse from their elbow. Just an observation you understand.
 
it was the specialist modules of the diploma on wood & wooden boats that interest me the most, but your not wrong, I'm sure for some anything thats not plastic or is over 20 years old and they ain't got a clue
 
[ QUOTE ]
My experiance of surveyors over the last 20 years is that good ones are getting few and far between, and the freshly qualified surveyors, when it comes to wooden vessels, don't know their arse from their elbow. Just an observation you understand.

[/ QUOTE ]

......which is why I continued on from my surveying course to do the 47 week wooden boat building course. I would still be very reluctant to introduce myself as either a surveyor or a boatbuilder. Fortunately my aspirations were very limited and I just wanted to understand more.

There are dodgy characters in every industry and surveying is no exception. My advice to any potential boat purchaser - particularly in wood - is to check the surveyors credentials very carefully. In principle, if a surveyor knows his way around wood, that is a good sign.
 
I've got a friend who was studying to become a marine surveyor. He was doing a distance learning course which takes a year. The last time I spoke to him about it he was concerned about the difficulty in getting professional indemnity insurance. I think he said that untill you can show the insurance company you have a proven track record the premiums are very steep.
 
I only really got a surveyor for insurance purposes. When it comes to wooden boats you can't beat a reputable boatbuilder to have a thorough look. He will really know what he is on about and look at things in a lot more detail and insight than a surveyor ever will.

For example the pre-purchase surveyor on Roach said the Stuart Turner was seized - and I negogiated price on this. But boatbuilder had a look, clicked the engine into neutral, the flywheel went round!
 
Antek - excellent foundation. Now add at least 7 to 10 years rebuilding and restoring wooden vessels, working on your tools, doing the job full time, include a few complete break-ups, as you can learn so much from those. Add a few trips in 'just surveyed' boats, where the water goes over your knees when it gets windy, a large dollop of practicability and common sense, some experiance of money-no-object projects and some no- money projects too, and you will make a great surveyor!
 
To give myself some paper qualifications, I did the MPI distance learning course, and must say the standard was quite variable. The “specialist” module on wooden boats was particularly disappointing: very “Noddy” and clearly aimed at people who had never stepped foot on a wooden boat before (i.e. picture of impeccable varnished topsides, caption “wooden boat in good condition”; picture of peeling paint, open seams and crumbling wood, caption “wooden boat in poor condition”. My caption: “No ****, Sherlock!”). Nothing that the average wooden boat owner would't already know. Not even what I would regard as the basics, such as the properties of different species of timber, with pictures so that the newbie is able to identify them.

If you feel you need more knowledge, a boatbuilding / repair course may stand you in better stead, and give you additional skills for working on Pansy. The other key skill is report writing: it is an art in itself, and too many survey reports come swathed in disclaimers to get around poor writing / attention to detail. Nothing can beat a report that is clear, concise and says what you damn well mean. And I would throw back any report that included the phrase “appeared to be” (just a pet hate – “The vessel appeared to be a Westerly Centaur” is, perhaps, the worst opening sentence I have ever read, and tells you everything you need to know about the quality of the survey).

It may not be the best time to set up as a surveyor, as muddundee says. When I set up full time a few years ago, there was more work and fewer surveyors: it was generally accepted that the UK needed an extra 200 or so. With about 40-50 people a year doing the IIMS/MPI diploma course alone, we have probably made up most of that shortfall: with the economic downturn, there’s now less work. That said, if you want to go for it, start off by going along with a friend looking at boats. Your job is the “pain in the arse mate” who tries to spot everything that the broker / seller hopes the buyer won’t notice, which is effectively what a good surveyor should be.
 
I am still amazed by people who base their decision to buy a £100,000 boat on the expertise of the cheapest person they can find. Unfortunately, my experience is that about 70% of enquirers just want to know how much a survey will cost and how quickly I can do it. This approach opens the door for those who have no qualifications, are not members of an accredited association and carry no insurance, and can thus undercut the more professional surveyors.

As well as those points, my advice would be to ask specifically what experience the surveyor has of the particular make/design, or the construction method if out-of-the-ordinary. And say that you are interested in coming along at some point during the day (even if you're not able to), so would like to know when he will be there: a good surveyor will be fully occupied all day on a wooden 32 footer. I wouldn’t be happy with a pre-purchase survey which took less than an hour for every 5’ LOA.
 
great answer dom. It was in particular the wooden boat bit that interested me, and I guess from what you say, I would probably be able able to ace all that already (pansy is the latest in several wooden boats I've had - she just happens to be a bit bigger !)

the report writing I reckon I could do better than pretty much any survey I've ever sen. Spent nearly 20 years in advertiing and marketing, where decent reports and presentations are everything!

my main reason for fancying this was, not just for my own personal ambition/knowledge, but I suspect the demand for surveying services is going to rocket in a year or 2 when the RCD get thrust upon us in full

having looked at Pansy's survey, and how long it took, I reckon that if I were doing a full survey over her, I'd struggle to cover everything in a day, and could probably take 2, but I guess there's be vert few folks willing to shell out for that kind of attention to detail
 
Entirely agree. I wouldn't try to survey any wooden boat over 40ft in a single day. Even that size is no small undertaking: you are looking at about 1/3 mile of planking to be tapped and prodded, both outside and in, and the same length of seams to be inspected. If you try to do too much in one day, you inevitably start rushing towards the end, and begin to miss things.

If you quote a fixed price based on the size of the vessel, the owner / buyer will seldom mind if you say up front you'll need the extra time to do a thorough job.

My top tip: when you are tapping the hull, don't swing the mallet "overarm", as if hitting a nail - hold it as though you are bowling underarm, and let your arm and the mallet form a pendulum. It's the same action as used when pushing new caulking cotton in, and is a lot less strain on the arm. Pretty essential if you're tapping away for a couple of hours at a time. And no, there was no mention of that on the surveying course either!
 
SeaNick. Absolutely agree. That is why I said:

"I would still be very reluctant to introduce myself as either a surveyor or a boatbuilder. Fortunately my aspirations were very limited and I just wanted to understand more."

In contrast, there is an eighteen year old who completed the course and is actively touting himself as a surveyor. He would not, however, get to survey my boat.
 
What are the "upcoming amends to the RCD from th eu" which are referred to.

The post sort of implies that we are due for the same sort of fiasco as HIP packs for houses and that all boats will need to be surveyed for RCD but a quick search for info does not seem to show any thing up that I can find.

I should have thought that anything so draconian would be pretty much in evidence.
 
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