"Marine" spec gas regulator, or ebay cheapy?

[Tintin]

Two years ago on the new boat I had fitted a "marine" spec gas regulator as part of the overhaul of the gas pipes.

On previous boats I have just had bog standard normal regulators that cost about £5.

The "marine" regulator, at a price in excess of £25 IIRC, was apparently more expensive because it was, well, for a marine environment.

Anyhow 2 years in and the on/off valve has died, jammed shut, and the little locking rocker switch has snapped in two.

I think I'm going to go back to the much longer lasting (and cheaper) non-marine regulators.

Any reason why not?

 

[pvb]

After only 2 years, I reckon you could legitimately claim the product wasn't fit for purpose and seek a replacement.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I think I'm going to go back to the much longer lasting (and cheaper) non-marine regulators.

Any reason why not?

I'm sure that various boogie-men will now be invoked, but since most chandlers seem to sell the standard cheapies, that's what I would go with.

 

[sailorman]

Bought mine here

https://www.bes.co.uk/products/060.asp

 

[bitbaltic]

I had a marine regulator which leaked from its overflow port/valve/hole/whatchamaycallit. Thought it was rubbish. Went straight back to a five quid one which, as it does not leak, seems infinitely safer to me.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

The only advantage of a marine regulator is that it has the down stream over pressure valve and the regulator itself is supposed to be made of corrosion resistant materials. Mine is one of the so called marine types but it is jus a regulator with a bracket, no bottle connectors (just a flexible hose) or on/off taps built in. It's just out the box. At the moment I am using a stubby Calor job, straight onto the bottle, that is well over 10 years old but looks tough considering the shitty locker it has lived in for all of its life.

 

[NormanS]

I use the ordinary push-on type (7kg Calor), and have done for years. I occasionally give it a skoosh of WD40.
In many situations"Marine" just means ££££.

 

[Bodach na mara]

Bought mine here

https://www.bes.co.uk/products/060.asp

As you have no doubt found out, BES no longer offer "marine" regulators. I had to fit one this year as it was a recommendation in the insurance survey and I got it from an Irish company, Hamilton's I think.

I agree with a lot of what has been said already. I have had gas on boats for nearly 50 yers now and approach safety from first principles. One of these is to have as few joints as possible, but I had to cut into a single-piece of pipe from regulator to cooker stop valve because it went through a bulkhead in a grommet sealed with flexible filler (Sika polysulphide) and the inspector wanted a bulkhead fitting. That added two compression joints to the system.

 

[kacecar]

My experience mirrors that of the OP: years with a cheap one that was fine; advised to change it for a special marine one by an "expert", advice I took; the expensive one failed after only a couple of years. I put a cheap one back on and have had no problems since. Unsurprisingly, I'm sticking with the cheaper ones.

 

[PetiteFleur]

I also fitted a 'marine' version earlier this year, it was larger than the 'cheapy' so had to re-arrange the gas locker to fit it in. My friend also fitted one and had to fit a 90° fitting to fit the hose - so more connections to leak!
I only did it as I'd had the boat for 11yrs and no idea how long it had been on board beforehand and thought was a good idea.

 

[VicS]

As you have no doubt found out, BES no longer offer "marine" regulators. I had to fit one this year as it was a recommendation in the insurance survey and I got it from an Irish company, Hamilton's I think.

I agree with a lot of what has been said already. I have had gas on boats for nearly 50 yers now and approach safety from first principles. One of these is to have as few joints as possible, but I had to cut into a single-piece of pipe from regulator to cooker stop valve because it went through a bulkhead in a grommet sealed with flexible filler (Sika polysulphide) and the inspector wanted a bulkhead fitting. That added two compression joints to the system.

No help if you are modifying an existing system but if installing new you may be able to avoid cutting the pipe by passing it through a bulkhead fitting which as been drilled through to remove the central "land". One of the compression joints can even be cut off it helps installation as only one is required to make a joint between the fitting and the uncut pipe.

But why did the surveyor what a bulkhead fitting anyway. It is only necessary where the pipe exits the gas locker or to maintain the integrity of a watertight bulkhead. A grommet is adequate to protect the pipe from chafe otherwise

 

[Tintin]

I use the ordinary push-on type (7kg Calor), and have done for years. I occasionally give it a skoosh of WD40.
In many situations"Marine" just means ££££.

Yes. I guess I got beguiled /a-feared by the safety aspect.

 

[sailorman]

No help if you are modifying an existing system but if installing new you may be able to avoid cutting the pipe by passing it through a bulkhead fitting which as been drilled through to remove the central "land". One of the compression joints can even be cut off it helps installation as only one is required to make a joint between the fitting and the uncut pipe.

But why did the surveyor what a bulkhead fitting anyway. It is only necessary where the pipe exits the gas locker or to maintain the integrity of a watertight bulkhead. A grommet is adequate to protect the pipe from chafe otherwise

Or a "marine" reg,
Just Arse covering i would imagine

 

[Malish]

It does not hurt to replace the regulator at the same time as the flexible pipe in a gas locker, but as for a fancy marine spec one - no, just a normal one from a reliable source.

 

[IanL]

Product Recall
Just a reminder that the current issue of PBO says that there is a potential fault with Novacomet BP1803 LPG regulators manufactured between June 2006 and September 2015. Might be worth checking.

 

[VicS]

Product Recall
Just a reminder that the current issue of PBO says that there is a potential fault with Novacomet BP1803 LPG regulators manufactured between June 2006 and September 2015. Might be worth checking.

Details here https://uk.clessesafetynotice.com/

 

[Nicholas123]

Yes. I guess I got beguiled /a-feared by the safety aspect.

You are not alone, there are many here who don't know much about gas & therefore project their fears onto everyone else.
My only advice would be to splash out a few quid extra for a regulator with a gauge attached (& a secondary pointer) so that you can carry out a soundness test every now & then to put your mind at ease.

PS: You don't even need the secondary pointer providing you can remember where the pointer was before you turn off the gas & wait five minutes.This would do http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/37mbar-PR...850452?hash=item2376d9f354:g:BgsAAOSwoBtW6TbJ

 

[VicS]

You are not alone, there are many here who don't know much about gas & therefore project their fears onto everyone else.
My only advice would be to splash out a few quid extra for a regulator with a gauge attached (& a secondary pointer) so that you can carry out a soundness test every now & then to put your mind at ease.

PS: You don't even need the secondary pointer providing you can remember where the pointer was before you turn off the gas & wait five minutes.This would do http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/37mbar-PR...850452?hash=item2376d9f354:g:BgsAAOSwoBtW6TbJ

Using a high pressure gauge is a very crude way of performing a soundness test and not without pitfalls. More correctly it should be carried out without the bottle and regulator being connected by pressurising the system with air to 70mb, ie well above the normal operating pressure, and monitoring for pressure loss with a sensitive U tube manometer or the equivalent.

A far more satisfactory way for the individual to test an lpg system is by installing an Alde bubble leak detector http://www.alde.co.uk/itemdetails.php?itemId=53

60 seconds is then all the time it takes to check the system . It can easily be done every time the gas is turned on if desired.

 

[neil_s]

Last year, my surveyor requested a 'Gas safe' check and the insurance company echoed that. The 'Gas safe' inspector was quite happy with the cheap (but in-date) regulator and issued the certificate.

 

[RogerMayne]

Nick Vass Omega Yacht Services in United Kingdom.
12 December 2014 ·
Gas Regulators on Yachts
Thanks to my pal Rog Powell who helped me answer this FAQ
Question
I am currently refurbishing a classic GRP sailing yacht that I intend to sail out of Poole Harbour to the IOW, and hopefully further afield – eg, Dartmouth & Salcombe where I started boating with my father in the 1970’s.
Right now I am in the process of installing a high spec two burner gas cooker into the boat using the very useful Boat Safety Scheme document as a guide prior to having the installation inspected by a registered marine gas engineer. However, the question of LPG gas regulators has arisen. All the boats (motor and sail) near mine in the marina that I have looked at use typical caravan style bottle top regulators available for about £10.00. Having previously worked in the gas detection industry I was surprised to find this style of regulator in common use on sailing yachts as I am aware that liquid gas can get past the internal diaphragm and over pressure the cooker feed pipe if the gas bottle is moved around enough for liquid gas to cover the bottles neck.
Further investigation revealed that (I believe) I require a BS EN 12864 - Annex M (now superseded by EN 16129:2013 Annex M) compliant regulator on my yacht on the basis I intend to put to sea in this boat. Such a regulator is designed with an integral over pressure valve to be able to safely deal with liquified gas getting into the cooker feed pipe, and is made of corrosion resistant material.
What has surprised me is that the Boat Safety Scheme guide does not advise which specification regulator to use. Nor as far as I am aware (I don’t have the latest revision as it’s a costly document) the definitive document: BS EN 10239 Small Craft Liquified Gas installations does not define a BS EN 12864 –Annex M compliant gas regulator for a boat used in the marine environment either. This is a worrying omission in my view.
Judging by the number of boats near me without a marine grade gas regulator fitted, and many are newish boats (under ten years old) I’d wager the Recreational Craft Directive (RCD) is probably equally as lax in this regard, although I have not seen a copy so don’t know that for sure. I can only report what my own eyes are seeing on modern boats near mine which is my primary concern as even if the ISO STD does define which regulator to use, obviously this information is not getting through to boat owners and users.
On a more positive note, the relevant electrical installation standard ISO 13297 and the Boat Safety Scheme electrical installation guides appear comprehensive and detailed. Some of the “grey” areas and sensitive issues such as earth bonding (or not) for shore power taken aboard are not shied away from. The pro’s and cons are discussed re: trade off between galvanic corrosion and safety with a defined conclusion being reached and a recommendation given. Exactly what is required for people like me wanting to “do the right thing” and seeking guidance.
Nick, my question is twofold, do I need a BS EN 12864 – Annex M gas regulator fitted or not & would my boat pass the gas safety inspection with a caravan style regulator fitted?
Will my insurance be invalidated if I do what everybody else does (including newer builds from my observations) and fit a low cost simple caravan regulator?
In addition; does the ISO standard such as BS EN 10239 that defines gas installations on small craft make reference to the associated standard for marine gas regulators (ie, BS EN 12864 - Annex M -now superseded by EN 16129:2013 Annex M)? If not why would this be so?
The average boat owner would have no reason to question either the Boat Safety Scheme nor the ISO standards unless they had worked in the pressurised gas world like myself (detection in my case) and realised something was not adding up. This is borne out by the fact marine regulators seem to be very rarely used in my local area anyway despite any number of owners advising they have had their boats surveyed and passed for insurance purposes.
To my mind the BSS Gas Installation guide and ISO 10239 should be promoting best practice for gas regulators fitted to sea going vessels and detailing any special requirements for sailing yachts.
Your comments and advice welcomed.
Regards
Michael Turner
Answer
Firstly; BS EN ISO 12864 Annex M is withdrawn and been replaced by BS EN 16129:2013 Annex M which is similar with regards to LPG Regulators used on seawater boats. LPG regulators are different to caravan/general purpose regulators in two specific areas (integral over pressure relief valve and high corrosion resistance )for a reason. Namely, the more arduous demands of the marine environment itself. Potential corrosion issues are well understood by many of us, however the need for gas regulators with an over pressure relief valve may be less understood by yacht owners.
Sailing yachts can readily incline to angles sufficient to cause high pressure liquid gas to slosh around and breach the gas regulator causing an over pressure condition within the low pressure cooker feed pipe. Over pressure in the low pressure feed pipe to the cooker can cause gas to breach & leak past seals to either; collect in the bilges, or unintentionally ignite at or near the source of the leak itself (eg, cooker control knob). Both conditions are extremely hazardous and potentially life threatening, not to mention invariably expensive to put right even if caught in time.
For practical purposes there would be no justifiable reason for a sailing yacht fitted with an LPG system as described above to go to sea with anything other than a BS EN ISO 16129 Annex M compliant gas regulator correctly installed and fitted.
Such a regulator will provide longevity with respect to corrosion and a safe route away from the sailing yacht (via a properly vented gas locker) for any gas discharged by the regulators over pressure relief valve.
In terms of the Boat Safety Scheme guide and the BS EN 10239 LPG installation standard, it might be that these documents are possibly lacking in the area of BS EN ISO 16129 Annex M regulators and there use/need on sailing yachts. It is possible these documents may not be promoting best practice if this is so. However this is no justification to doing anything other than the “right thing” on your boat, which in your case Roger is to correctly install a BS EN ISO 16129 Annex M gas regulator based on your intended use of your sailing yacht at sea.
With regards to insurance, I suggest you discuss with your insurers, however, as the correct BS EN ISO 16129 Annex M marine gas regulators are available for under £50 it would be more sensible to fit the correct regulator for your needs.
Nick Vass