Marine 16 Diesel Dipper.
- Thread starter burgundyben
- Start date
prv
Well-Known Member
So it's a fuel-polishing system?
Apart from the reusable 40-micron filter, which I haven't come across before but then I haven't really looked, it doesn't seem to involve any particular innovation over any other fuel-polishing system made up from off-the-shelf bits from ASAP.
Pete
Apart from the reusable 40-micron filter, which I haven't come across before but then I haven't really looked, it doesn't seem to involve any particular innovation over any other fuel-polishing system made up from off-the-shelf bits from ASAP.
Pete
Barbican
Well-Known Member
Looks like a facet duralift pump, coupled to the separator unit. Not sure what's in the separator and how well it works so difficult to say if it's good value for money, but it looks neat and saves a bit of plumbing vs making your own using a racor or similar. Their website video looks good, but how the reality of a larger tank with baffles and so on compares to the bottle Im not sure, having said that if it had been on the market when I installed a similar setup I certainly would have been tempted...
sarabande
Well-Known Member
Frankly it looks like something the village blacksmith has cobbled up, though I am sure its functionality within their design spec is very good.
However it relies on tanks having a drain plug at the very bottom, and also on contamination not remaining undisturbed on the walls and baffles of the tank. I think a two stage filtration system would be better with a much finer final filter than the 'stainless 40 micron' one they install. That is relatively coarse (with a human hair ranging between 17 and 180 microns).
Current best practice from forum members who know about these things does recommend the installation of a pressure gauge to indicate filter blockages at an early stage; I see no gauge in the model on their website.
Looks like a bit of a prototype, to be honest, and if I were to buy one I would like more re-assurance than that the device removes all water, sludge and contaminants from the very bottom of the tank and whose functionality relies on fuel sloshing around in the tank. Note the underline; it is inconclusive. Paying upwards of 400 squids for a fuel cleaner, I would want a 100% solution.
However it relies on tanks having a drain plug at the very bottom, and also on contamination not remaining undisturbed on the walls and baffles of the tank. I think a two stage filtration system would be better with a much finer final filter than the 'stainless 40 micron' one they install. That is relatively coarse (with a human hair ranging between 17 and 180 microns).
Current best practice from forum members who know about these things does recommend the installation of a pressure gauge to indicate filter blockages at an early stage; I see no gauge in the model on their website.
Looks like a bit of a prototype, to be honest, and if I were to buy one I would like more re-assurance than that the device removes all water, sludge and contaminants from the very bottom of the tank and whose functionality relies on fuel sloshing around in the tank. Note the underline; it is inconclusive. Paying upwards of 400 squids for a fuel cleaner, I would want a 100% solution.
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Firefly625
Well-Known Member
there askes the person who doesn't even use fuel bug treatment.... did our conversation get you thinking?
as everyone has said, looks like what any one of us would make up in our shed... I made one for my Hardy which looked rather neater, never bothered with my Mitchell but have a better filtration set up... as I mentioned to you I tend to put in more Marine 16 treatment into my tank than I really require as in the habit when I top up my tank I always add a measure of Marine 16... all those measures probably adds up to a massively high dose in my tank!
petem
Well-Known Member
You'd have thought the could fine someone capable of neater welding....
Or at least grind the welds down and power code the back plate.
Pete
Or at least grind the welds down and power code the back plate.
Pete
burgundyben
Well-Known Member
No, funnily, it wasn't that! I believe in fuel hygiene rather than additives.
I posted it because I thought it looked crap for the money, I just can't see it being effective.
(I do seem to be in the early stage process of buying a boat that's been ashore 2 years and I did wonder about the state of the fuel)
Chris_Robb
Well-Known Member
I only posted it because so many people rely on filtration which does not solve the problem just allows you to carry on with a problem and not do anything about it..
I believe the RNLI stats show a very high proportion of shouts relate to dirty fuel. - Out of sight out of mind.
Its better than doing nothing. Before I had a new tank built the only way I could scavenge the bottom of the tank was through the filler with a long copper tube on a powerful pump. It kept my tank clean and I was was much happier in bad weather on a lee shore knowing that my fuel was clean.
Now with a decent sump and 3/4 inch tap I can flush off regularly without the polaver of rigging up the pump.
Yachts that do not clean their tanks regularly are an accident waiting to happen.
Chris_Robb
Well-Known Member
I would not say that is best practice at all! it just tells you something you should not have allowed to happen! By all means have one, but it gives a false sense of "Job Done" when it hasn't been.
I think it looks a bit of a prototype too but I hope it just gets people thinking about an issue that wont go away.
Marine16
New Member
Some very good comments here, Can I add my penny’s worth on the Diesel Dipper.
As a marine engineer we drained the water out of the diesel tank every watch. Boats, however, either cannot get to the drain plug or more commonly don’t have one so over the months/years the water builds up and when you see it in the water separator/filter you most likely have a layer of water and sludge on the bottom since the fuel suction is typically at least 10mm above the bottom.
Water is probably the single most destructive contaminant in fuel, it harbours Diesel Bug, that is known, but it can also lead to accelerated degradation of the fuel producing sludge. Which in turn also promotes the agglomeration of asphaltenes which sink and add to the sludge on the bottom of your tank, you can recognise these as a tarry black hard substance (think of asphalt on the roads) as opposed to the slimy black diesel bug. All of which build up and eventually block the engine filters.
The challenge I believed was to get something to suck from the very bottom of the tank below the fuel suction, before the accumulating water became a problem. A standard filter/separator fitted with a pump would not work, their primary objective is to filter fuel to the engine so any sludge would quickly block the filter and the water separator section is often too small (we tested them all).
There was nothing else on the market so we built one. After 2 years research we developed the Diesel Dipper®. We built Perspex models and videoed the passage of the diesel, water and sludge as it transited through the separator using a variable speed pump. With many adjustments and design changes we optimized the flow and separation and now have a patent pending. The next challenge was to produce a working model in aluminium. The picture we have is one of the earlier ones and thanks for the comment posted, yes it looks a little like a prototype, it was one of the first, but we needed a picture to start marketing. They are now laser cut, fully fabricated and professionally welded and we will be changing that picture.
The Dipper is made in the UK, aesthetically, we would like to powder coat it but each job adds cost and ups the price so for now it is on the wish list.
There is no filter gauge fitted as there are no consumable filters to replace, the only filter is the 40 micron washable filter for the pump.
Since many tanks do not have a drain plug we had to find a way to get to the bottom of the tank so developed the “Dip Tube” that sits on the top (or the side) and draws up from the bottom.
There are many companies that can clean diesel tanks but, as has been said, sludge remains behind the baffles. Running the Dipper, whilst at sea, with the contents of the tank bottom sloshing about, everything, including water and sludge, will eventually be drawn up into the separator where it is drained out, getting the sludge from behind the baffles was one of the objectives of building the Dipper..
There was a comment about using a 40 micron filter? This was added as an additional filter only, The pump is supplied with a 120 micron filter, we figured since the fuel is being circulated anyway why not fit a fine filter so the engine filters lasted longer.
Fuel polishing is a buzz word now but generally fuel polishing is not necessary in Marine, unless the fuel is severely degraded and often that happened because there is water at the bottom. Data centres and Hospitals with massive tanks and diesel kept for years need fuel polishing. Also consider you already have a fuel polishing system on the boat in the form of the engine since up to 60% of the fuel going through the engine fuel pump can be returned to the tank. Our advice would be to fit a duplex 2 or 5 micron filter downstream of a coarser filter so whenever the engine is running all solid contaminates are removed, this would create an effective fuel polisher. Then get some arrangement to remove the water, this is what the Dipper was designed for.
I hope this has helped and clarified the function of the Dipper. We are always willing to help with fuel related problems if you want to get in touch.
As a marine engineer we drained the water out of the diesel tank every watch. Boats, however, either cannot get to the drain plug or more commonly don’t have one so over the months/years the water builds up and when you see it in the water separator/filter you most likely have a layer of water and sludge on the bottom since the fuel suction is typically at least 10mm above the bottom.
Water is probably the single most destructive contaminant in fuel, it harbours Diesel Bug, that is known, but it can also lead to accelerated degradation of the fuel producing sludge. Which in turn also promotes the agglomeration of asphaltenes which sink and add to the sludge on the bottom of your tank, you can recognise these as a tarry black hard substance (think of asphalt on the roads) as opposed to the slimy black diesel bug. All of which build up and eventually block the engine filters.
The challenge I believed was to get something to suck from the very bottom of the tank below the fuel suction, before the accumulating water became a problem. A standard filter/separator fitted with a pump would not work, their primary objective is to filter fuel to the engine so any sludge would quickly block the filter and the water separator section is often too small (we tested them all).
There was nothing else on the market so we built one. After 2 years research we developed the Diesel Dipper®. We built Perspex models and videoed the passage of the diesel, water and sludge as it transited through the separator using a variable speed pump. With many adjustments and design changes we optimized the flow and separation and now have a patent pending. The next challenge was to produce a working model in aluminium. The picture we have is one of the earlier ones and thanks for the comment posted, yes it looks a little like a prototype, it was one of the first, but we needed a picture to start marketing. They are now laser cut, fully fabricated and professionally welded and we will be changing that picture.
The Dipper is made in the UK, aesthetically, we would like to powder coat it but each job adds cost and ups the price so for now it is on the wish list.
There is no filter gauge fitted as there are no consumable filters to replace, the only filter is the 40 micron washable filter for the pump.
Since many tanks do not have a drain plug we had to find a way to get to the bottom of the tank so developed the “Dip Tube” that sits on the top (or the side) and draws up from the bottom.
There are many companies that can clean diesel tanks but, as has been said, sludge remains behind the baffles. Running the Dipper, whilst at sea, with the contents of the tank bottom sloshing about, everything, including water and sludge, will eventually be drawn up into the separator where it is drained out, getting the sludge from behind the baffles was one of the objectives of building the Dipper..
There was a comment about using a 40 micron filter? This was added as an additional filter only, The pump is supplied with a 120 micron filter, we figured since the fuel is being circulated anyway why not fit a fine filter so the engine filters lasted longer.
Fuel polishing is a buzz word now but generally fuel polishing is not necessary in Marine, unless the fuel is severely degraded and often that happened because there is water at the bottom. Data centres and Hospitals with massive tanks and diesel kept for years need fuel polishing. Also consider you already have a fuel polishing system on the boat in the form of the engine since up to 60% of the fuel going through the engine fuel pump can be returned to the tank. Our advice would be to fit a duplex 2 or 5 micron filter downstream of a coarser filter so whenever the engine is running all solid contaminates are removed, this would create an effective fuel polisher. Then get some arrangement to remove the water, this is what the Dipper was designed for.
I hope this has helped and clarified the function of the Dipper. We are always willing to help with fuel related problems if you want to get in touch.
Whitelighter
Well-Known Member
Do you think this is needed is I dose every tank of fuel with Marine 16 Diesel Bug Treatment - latest 1000ml bottle drives this morning.
Marine16
New Member
Hi
Diesel Bug Treatment is a biocide and will kill Diesel Bug and/or prevent it gaining hold. But killing the bug is only half the story, for effective fuel management it is essential to remove the water. If you have a drain plug then use that or push a pipe down from the filler if you can get it to the bottom. If you can't then the Dipper and a Dip tube will get to. Once the water has gone, instead of using Diesel Bug Treatment I would recommend using the Diesel Fuel Complete (DFC) this has all the additives you need to keep the fuel fresh, clean the engine fuel system and it has a small amount of Biocide in at a maintenance dose level to kill off any bug held in the suspended water in fuel.....It's also cheaper!
kashurst
Well-Known Member
If your filters are staying pretty clean and no evidence of water either then I wouldn't bother. It doesn't seem to me to be doing anything above what your engine filters are doing. If you have tank sumps and a drain valve, dump a few litres every now and then see what comes out.
Chris_Robb
Well-Known Member
Well. That's the point. Most yachts don't have a sump and treat the whole issue of water in the tank as treatable with additives. Wrong answer. Marine 16 is one of the few that preaches the right method.
Prevention rather than cure
PCUK
Well-Known Member
Thread drift, are you Chris Robb the marine thriller author?
Sneds
Well-Known Member
Looks like an interesting product, like the look of it v much, PM sent to M16
PCUK
Well-Known Member
I'm certainly considering one on my current rebuild.