Marina Manoeuvres?

[CaptainBob]

I'm very very new to this but have done a few courses and am increasing the level of what I'm doing very steadily - I think the following sounds in places like I'm completely clueless and shouldn't be in charge of a boat. I'm perhaps not quite as clueless as it sounds - but your suggestions would be much appreciated...

Spent the night in Sutton Harbour Marina on Saturday. Was a really nice change from the solitude of my buoy up at Weir Quay... but I found it pretty stressful mooring up and then disembarking - most of the other boats in there probably have tenders worth more than my little tub /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

On arrival, a guy from the marina was waiting on the pontoon to help us moor up which made things pretty simple - but the thought occurred as to what I would have done if I'd overshot the slot we'd been allocated. There really didn't appear to be a lot of room to turn around in the cul-de-sac we were heading down - and the wind was blowing strongly towards the dead end which was very close to the berth we'd be given. If we'd overshot, how would we safely have turned around considering I have very little directional control in reverse, and I think we would be likely to reach the dead end broadside (due to making the turn to port to enter the berth)?

Also - leaving the berth - we'd gone in forwards and the wind was set perfect to pull the back of the boat around as we reversed straight out, so we ended up pointing the correct way to depart - it went pretty smoothly. However, with just the two of us onboard, as soon as we started to come out, the back started to swing and my gf was charged with ensuring the bow didn't make contact with the boat to our port - I was at the helm and so could do little to avoid the corner of the jetty to our s'board making contact with our hull as we rotated out. What could I have done to avoid this? (PS. was a very slow contact - no harm done I don't think, but would rather it didn't happen obviously)

Also - had the wind been coming from the opposite direction, we'd have found it very difficult not to swing out the wrong way surely? I was thinking that having a line from the stern cleat to the outer jetty cleat - slipped but held tightish against the engine in astern - would swing us around the correct way... but is that the best way? This would obviously only work if we were moored up on the correct side also - I have no plan at all if we were not.

TY!

 

[stevebrassett]

Re: Marina maneuvers?

One thing to remember with a boat is that the stern will find the wind - in other words, the bows will blow away from the wind.

Another thing to get is a nice big round fender - so when there are two on board, one can use it as a roving fender - just hang it between your boat and anything you are about to make contact with.

Oh, and don't go too fast - just make steerage way.

There will be lots more suggestions along in a minute.

 

[davidrainsbury]

Re: Marina maneuvers?

A lot of emphasis is put on getting in and out of berths under engine, like trying to park a car. Engines are overrated. Kate has a long keel and doesn't do controlled reversing. As a single-hander I can't rely on crew to watch the ends and lines. In tight spots I resort to a steady push. Reversing out of a berth I take a line to the quarter and hold on to this as I push the yacht out. It depends on the wind direction but I then get her to pivot (even long keeled yachts will spin on the spot if you just push one end and pull the other) so that she is facing the exit and the pulpit is within clambering distance. There's time to walk aft and drop the engine into gear facing the right way. It scares the pants off spectators to see me pushing an uncrewed yacht out into space, but softlee, softlee catchee monkey is the watchword.
I can't spell manoovers either.

David /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

[Aeolus]

I was told this technique for turning round in a narrow space and it works wonderfully well.

Assuming that your propwalk (in reverse) pushes the stern to starboard, head down the narrow cul-de-sac slightly on the starboard side. Get up to maybe 1.5 - 2 knots speed. Then turn sharply to port. As the boat starts to swing round, give the engine a burst in reverse, then a burst forward, then reverse, and carry on alternating until you've spun round. Allow maybe a few seconds between bursts. You may need to give slightly longer bursts in reverse than forward. Dont change the direction of the rudder until you need to straighten out. The boat should pivot round virtually on the spot.

If your propwalk works the other way, all the ports and starboards above are reversed.

Works with bilge and fin keels - not tried a long keel. Practice in open water first.

 

[davidrainsbury]

This works even better with long keelers with the prop in a cutout in the keel, which accentuates the walk effect. I prefer to do it from a standing start, helm hard over and a good burst of power, cutting to nothing before she gets any forward way on, a brief pause in neutral then into reverse. Banging it straight into neutral is very stressful for gearbox and propshaft. KAte will turn on the spot very nicely this way. This is great for getting in or turning round, but not for getting out of a finger berth.

 

[shmoo]

1 Don't worry about onlookers.
2 Don't listen to shouted advice. They don't know what your plan is; how your boat handles; what the wind is doing out where you are...
3 You can't have too many fenders. Rig them at varying heights becuase you don't know what you are fending against until its too late.
4 A gentle, well-fended encounter with another boat is not a collision, it is just routine.
5 Don't be afraid to spend ages warping out of a berth (and remember 1 and 2 above)
6 A nose-bag fender will give you more confidence entering a berth
7 If/when you do end up side on, pinned against the ends of several boats, in the opposite pens, by wind/tide remember you won't be the first or the last. Don't try to drive off. I would take a warp upwind/uptide from midships and winch off.

 

[doug748]

Re: Marina maneuvers?

Grand, I am glad you posted this one. I have done this myself and always felt a bit of a fraud in not using the engine. Of course by setting the helm and just shoving the thing you have none of the problems of prop walk and you are in the ideal position to fend/guide off the pontoon as she moves away.
When single/short handed the problem with rigging a slip line aft is getting the thing off in short order, plus the fear of it jamming........ I have a novel solution more of which later.....

 

[notyet]

I have a similar problem every time we leave our berth (portside to) due to the prop walk dragging the stern round to port. The easiest way out is to use David's method above and have someone on the jetty "walk" the boat around keeping it off the pontoon until we are clear and then jumping on. This does depend on having a relatively confident and athletic crew though.

My wife isn't so keen on doing this so when it is just the two of us we rig a slipped spring from the bow to middle cleat of the pontoon, then motor forward against this (need a big fender at the bow) which swings the stern out. Before we hit the boat to our starboard I get the missus to slip the line and reverse out, this usually gives enough space to clear the pontoon.

Cheers,

Will

 

[DJE]

The first rule is don't go into an aisle without a plan for getting back out again.
If the wind is blowing down the aisle towards the dead end then I don't try and turn round I just reverse out. As someone else has said the stern will seek the wind and the bow will weatercock downwind so she should look after herself as she gathers sternway. Leaving a berth in an aisle with the wind blowing towards the dead end I tend to reverse all the way out of the aisle rather than trying to turn the bow up into the wind in a confined space.
With the wind blowing you out of the aisle it is fairly simple to turn the boat by starting the turn in the direction a favoured by the propwalk (ours walks to port in astern so I always make tight turns to starboard if possible) then a touch of astern to take the way off and let the wind blow the bow round for you.
In strong crosswinds I would turn the boat around by turning the bow up in to the wind regardless of the propwalk direction. Once the bow is through the wind you can take the way off and she will carry on turning on her own.
Look dead ahead to assess your rate of turn and look to one side to assess your speed over the ground. You'll soon get the hang of it.

 

[wotayottie]

Shmoo has given a lot of good advice and I'd add one more bit. Dont do the usual macho male controlling thing of driving the boat yourself leaving the female crew (who's usually the weaker) to do the fending off , raising anchors etc etc.

Put her on the helm and you do the manhandling. Cos there usually will be some. As shmoo has pointed out, well fendered leaning against another boat or the pontoon is a routine part of boat handling. Its not like driving a car where a bit of leaning means "prang".

A good skipper uses the strengths of his crew to best advantage.

 

[Resolution]

Re Point 7 being pinned against the ends of other boats.
This is at first very alarming and can lead quickly to real damage if you try to drive off.
Last month I watched a classic example of how to get out of trouble. At Mercury on the Hamble the spring ebb tide was ripping through the outer berths of the marina at right angles to the fairway. A stiff NE wind was adding to the tidal flow. Coming out from the inner end of the fairway, a smart 40ft AWB was caught by the strength of the wind and tide and pushed, beam on,onto the sterns of two berthed power boats and a finger end. After a few moments of activity in getting fenders into the right places, the skipper took a long look around, weighed up the options and decided to stay put until the tide turned. Two hours later, with no real damage done, he motored off. Captain Cool indeed!

 

[MarkGrubb]

Yup I have all these problems too and Shmoo has a good list of points.

I tend to use avoidance as the best tactic and generally try not to go into marinas. In the past I've radioed ahead to get a berth and then stuck the boat somewhere completely different because it was easer to get in and out of. Popped down the office and asked if I could stay there instead. Don't be afraid of temporarily going alongside a boat on an outside berth and then walk round to have a look at the spot you want to get into and plan how you will do it, or visit the marina office and ask for a better spot, I'm sure they have others, and may just invite you to leave the boat where it is.

Warping is great. Practise warping boat in and out, or warp it to a better berth or position. If I'm facing the wrong way on a quay or pontoon I nearly always turn the boat on warps to face the way I'm leaving.

I was rafted up for 5-days in weymouth last year and everyday someone inside wanted to leave, myself and SWMBO would just ran lines to the raft foreward or behind and warp the boat out of the way: bit of a push, bit of a pull, like David says, softlee softlee. If it goes wrong, it will go wrong slowly (giving you time to correct), and hit things softly.

A guy with a wide cat, stuck on the quay end of a 5-deep raft looked like he was in a tight spot. He simply took a rope to the bow cleat of the furthest boat on the adjacent raft and then pulled himself though 90 degrees so he was stern on to the quay and motored straight out, slipping the line as he went. Nice and simple.

In strong crosswinds i've ferryglided down the isle by keeping the bows pointing into the wind with the tiller right over and little bursts of ahead, boat then moves sideways similar to when you use the current to ferryglide. Once I completely missed the berth I'd been allocated (which would have meant reversiing into the finge berth, or turning downwind, which was what I was trying to avoid). In the end I glided all the way down the isle and went alongside the boat at the end that was up against the quay. Marina was happy for me to stay there. If I needed to exit and extra burst on the engine would have flicked the bow through the wind and I could have motored out.

Also, find out where your boat pivots, for me it'st just forward of the companionway hatch, and make use of single rope techniques: i.e. midships spring. I don't have a cleat there, so just run a mooring line through the genoa car and back to a cockpit winch. Getting the midships line on when coming alongside, or leaving, makes it less likely that you will loose control of the stern or bows.

 

[johnalison]

[ QUOTE ]
The first rule is don't go into an aisle without a plan for getting back out again.


[/ QUOTE ]
As well as a lot of good advice around, this is probably the most important of all. No two boats are alike and one reason we recommend starting with small cruisers (after dinghies) is that you get a chance to develop a feel for manoeuvring with a boat which is easier to handle and will do least damage.

On Saturday I came into our berth on a starboard-hand finger with a quartering wind in the upper twenties. With only two of us, I settled for ending up alongside our neighbour as first choice, which was easily accomplished, and an easy matter to winch us a couple of feet across to our finger. There was never any risk of damaging either boat, though the only spectator probably thought I'd messed it up.

 

[Roger_D]

I remember many years ago at Lymington marina taking out a 38 ft Nicholson for the first time. There was a strong wind straight down the aisle and I was worried that taking her our stern first, that I might not get the bows around against the wind and be blown down to the dead end, so we took a very long warp and tied it to a finger on the other side about 5 fingers up wind. As I came out (managing in the event, to turn the bows into the wind), the cockpit filled with smoke and the engine would go no faster than tick over, not enough to make any progress against the wind . We gently fell back beam on to the pointy ends of several boats, managing to fend off with no damage. It turned out that the exhaust manifold had fallen off filling the engine compartment with fumes and thus starving the engine of oxygen. It was my first charter! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif (Had this happened a bit later, when I was more confident of my handling, I would not have warped off.....) /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[LittleSister]

There's a lot of good advice above.

I'd emphasise that you have to get away from trying to drive a boat like a car. Provided you have either your prop in front of your rudder, or an outboard which can be turned (unfortunately my old Hurley had neither!), your boat doesn't need to be moving forwards or backwards to turn (unlike a car). With a bit of practise and using the standing start technique expained above you can turn most boats in little more than their own length. (No I didn't believe it either until I was shown).

Unless your boat is fitted with brakes keep speeds as low as is consistent with maintaining steerage control, especially in confined spaces like marinas where idiots are likely to pull out in front of you in the middle of your carefully planned manoeuvre and there's lots of sharp and expensive kit surrounding you.

Get the feel of what your boat will and won't do in terms of turning through the wind, where it pivots, how fast the bow falls off in the wind, how much and which way the prop kicks the boat in forward and reverse, how much you can turn round without moving forward, etc., by practicising first near a buoy (so you can see your relative position) in open water with no obstacles or traffic. Do this first without tide, if possible, and then once you've got the basics you can see how you can cope with tide and use it to help you.

Others have rightly recommended reversing out into a wind. Unfortunately many boats, especially long keelers, are a bit approximate going backwards, even into the wind, what with prop kick, etc., and the wind may be blowing at an angle to your desired track, too. If so try to head your boat stern first into the wind, and when it falls off too much from your desired direction give it a quick kick in forward gear (back in neutral before it starts to move forward) with the rudder over in the appropriate dirtection to kick the stern back in the direction you want to go, then (after a pause for the gearbox's sake) back into reverse and continue your path. You may need to do this several times to reach somewhere you can comfortably turn around.

That's the theory, anyway. I really learnt a lot, and gained a lot of confidence (though still get it wrong sometimes), about manoeuvring on a Coastal Skipper course with Southern Sailing School. I'd really recommend doing a practical course with a good sailing school. You'll have fun, learn lots you didn't know you didn't know, and get confidence about the skills you already have.

Have fun.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Some good advice - although if you don't mind I'll add a word of caution and a little advice as well.

Firstly, not all boats turn in their own length as well as others. Some of the descriptions of turning a boat round make it sound a bit simpler than it sometimes is. However the goo news is that Westerly Centaurs (like yours) are not the worst (but not the best either) at spinning round in confined spaces, so take it easy and practice where you can't hit anything.

With respect to one poster who gave you a blow by blow account of how to do it, the way you turn depends on which way your boats prop walk takes you! Not all boats turn best to port...

Even in a fin keeled boat with a good engine and big rudder with lots of prop walk to help you, sometimes the wind is blowing so strongly down a 'blind alley' in a marina that you HAVE TO reverse out. Actually in these circumstances its easier reversing into the wind as the boat tends to weathercock into the wind and the wind helps you keep the thing straight. Even in our fin keeled boat, there are some places it just won't turn round in. The bows get blown down just as fast as I turn the boat round. This is one reason why people buy bow thrusters on big boats!

You say your boat doesn't steer going backwards. I think you will find that Centaurs will steer going backwards quite nicely. Unlike going forwards, you need to gain steerage way and then be very careful with the rudder. The tiller will exert a VERY powerful pull if you let it go very far to Port or Starboard. The boat will tend to crab a bit as she steers, but you WILL be able to steer. Face aft and put both hands on the tiller and point it in the direction you want to go. Let the boat build up a little speed, and use just enough throttle to keep her going.

You could always book a day's 'own boat tuition' with a local instructor. I can reccomend a few in the Plymouth area. Get a friend to join in and it won't cost you more than £60 or £70 each or so.

 

[CaptainBob]

Many thanks for all these replies - some great and very useful information here.

Take the point re courses - but I've already taken quite a few and have found that conditions and situations experienced during the "course" are often not the ones in which new questions rather suddenly arise.

Having said that those courses weren't on my boat as you say, which would probably make a fair bit of difference - please feel free to PM me contact details of your recommendations JMUK - appreciate that.

I think my next move though will be to spend a bit of time repeatedly coming alongside my local jetty, and playing around my mooring buoy under engine.

Thanks again,

 

[Bilgediver]

Also - had the wind been coming from the opposite direction, we'd have found it very difficult not to swing out the wrong way surely? I was thinking that having a line from the stern cleat to the outer jetty cleat - slipped but held tightish against the engine in astern - would swing us around the correct way... but is that the best way? This would obviously only work if we were moored up on the correct side also - I have no plan at all if we were not.
***************************************************

Yes this is how I depart the marina under most conditions as my prop torque pulls the wrong way.

You need to practice turning and using the prop walk to your advantage. The Westerly Centaur will happily turn in just a little more than its own length using the prop walk but not if fighting it.

If you have the original Volvo fitted then you have a left hand prop which means that the stern goes to starboard when going astern Also this means the stern goes to port when going ahead. This means that if you want to do a 360 thendo one anticlockwise ie start swinging to port as you move ahead and then use small amounts of astern which will keep you rotating the same way almost on the spot. You should soon learn to spin like a ballet dancer.

The Centaur will steer astern once you are up to 3 or 3 knots.

I find if I reverse out of my pontoon and allow the stern to swing to starboard then by the time the boat has swung 90 degrees I have control to settle on a coarse in reverse out of the cut between the finger ends. I have the Westerly Chieftain with wheel steering but otherwise the same as the Centaur. You will have to keep firm hold of the tiller when running astern as the minute you relax it takes control and will slam hard over one way or the other!!!!

 

[liztate]

All good advice. Would just add a caution about too many cooks!
By all means listen to the advice of those around but the final decision rests with the skipper. Never be pushed into attempting a manouver in a way you are not entirely happy with even if it comes from someone more experienced. This followed a very embarrassing, although fortunately uneventful moment leaving a berth in Cowes YH where I should have stuck to my tried and tested method but foolishly went with someone elses suggestion instead!

 

[cashinone]

I'd add that this is an area where we all continue to learn by experience.

An old friend of mine said to me that you learn something new every time you go our for a sail and from my own experience I still think that holds good.

The same old friend advised me to find a quiet stretch of water where you can practice going astern. I spent a hour or so reversing in figure of eights in all directions to get a feel for how my boat handled in the tide and wind. Try to do this where there are vacant buoys that you can simulate coming alongside.

As a result I discovered as others have advised that my boat's rear end seeks the wind and more to the point that the bow is very easily blown around when i'm not making way.

All of this knowledge is what you need when entering marinas.

Finally as others have also said there is no substitute for having a plan B. Always have in mind an escape route and oh yes more fenders than you originally thought sensible.