manual or electric bilge pump

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Spyro

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Is there any requirement to have a working manual pump? Any survey requirements? I reckon in an emergency a manual bilge pump is pretty useless so I'm thinking about fiting another electric pump. I already have an electric pump in the engine bay and a manual one with the pick up in the lowest part of the bilge. I'm thinking about replacing the manual one. I want to use the existing 38mm tubing which is glassed into the structure of the boat to run the new 19mm tube until it reaches the pump which is accessed in the cockpit locker. From there I'll remove the pump and run the tube to the skin fitting. Any reasons why this would be a bad idea (or a good one)
 
Definitely a coding requirement and if I remember rightly two independent manual pumps one operated from the cabin and one in the cockpit. Probably an RCD requirement as well as being common sense to have two independent pumps, one manual one electric.
 
Why? I have two electric pumps in the main bilge. High capacity automatically switched primary pump and a very high capacity manually switched pump with a roving ability. In my opinion, in an emergency situation, unless you have lots of crew, a manual pump is not going to be an advantage.
 
I don't need to worry about coding, another thought I had was if sailing solo I couldn't tackle a leak operate radio etc if I had to keep pumping.
 
We all have different priorities when equipping boats to go offshore. Having faced the situation where we lost electrical power after an ingress of water I was rather pleased that we had both manual and electrical bilge pumps.
 
Toutvabien said:
We all have different priorities when equipping boats to go offshore. Having faced the situation where we lost electrical power after an ingress of water I was rather pleased that we had both manual and electrical bilge pumps.
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Agree entirely: have been on board a boat deep sea with an unfindable leak that necessitated pumping 10 minutes or so every hour. Shortly afterward engine out of action too.
 
I'm not being facetious but has anyone tried bailing with a bucket? How does it compare to a manul bilge pump? I know operating a manual bilge pump can be quite hard work.
 
Spyro said:
I'm not being facetious but has anyone tried bailing with a bucket? How does it compare to a manul bilge pump? I know operating a manual bilge pump can be quite hard work.
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I've been on a boat where it's been done, but I wasn't doing it myself. I was steering and using the manual pump on deck, someone else was using the manual pump below decks, the electric pump was running, and three people were working a bucket chain. We were glad to have all of those options. I think the guys on the buckets found it quite hard work - ultimately whatever system you use, the energy needed to lift hundreds of litres of water by a couple of metres is substantial. A manual pump has frictional loss in the plumbing, but (if installed right) pretty good ergonomics; a bucket has no significant frictional loss but bracing yourself in position and getting a good action that you can smoothly keep doing for any length of time will tire you out instead.

I believe Vyv has had a flood at his mooring and bailed out by hand; draw your own conclusions from the fact that he fitted a large emergency manual pump soon afterwards :)

Pete
 
Spyro said:
I'm not being facetious but has anyone tried bailing with a bucket? How does it compare to a manul bilge pump? I know operating a manual bilge pump can be quite hard work.
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We found the floorboards of the Berwick just about floating on initial delivery trip, no electric pump fitted then. Took a long time to pump manually but bucket wouldn't have been an option as no sump to sink it in and a few more inches of water and the battery would have been flooded. I wouldn't be without manual backup.
 
Spyro said:
I'm not being facetious but has anyone tried bailing with a bucket? How does it compare to a manul bilge pump? I know operating a manual bilge pump can be quite hard work.
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It was tested by YBW either as a comparison test of bilge pumps or as part of the Crash Test Boat series. The bucket did not fair well simply because, as prv states, it was exhausting after a while, the bucket when filled is quote heavy, bracing to lift and tip is difficult. I think it would be a difficult option if there were only a couple of people on a yacht. The chain gang described by prv sound like a plan in an emergency, otherwise, spend the time preparing to abandon if a chain gang can not be used.
 
Spyro said:
I want to use the existing 38mm tubing which is glassed into the structure of the boat to run the new 19mm tube ...
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I'd caution against this. Frankly, a bilge pump with a 19mm tube is going to be of little use in the emergency you're planning for. To shift any volume of water, you need a big pump with a correspondingly large pipe.

Like others, I'd suggest having at least one manual pump is a good idea.
 
If you race ever then you need a manual pump ?

Would the average buyer be happy without manual pump ?

From experience of having shipped water due to a non sealed anchorwell using a bucket is very tiring from inside a cabin as it requires lifting it high enough to empty into the cockpit. To do it without spilling it back on your self in a rolling boat standing in any depth of water is even more difficult. You would also be in the cabin unable to see what is happening and subject to seasickness!
 
Earlier this year I intentionally opened the 38mm seacock to check for a blockage, the volume of water was astonishing, we have a very powerful centrifugal pump which emptied out at about a quarter the rate of inflow. What that means in practice is you can forget any bilge pump actually fighting a inflow of water, it's there to help you clean up - all hands to find and plug the leak, then get rid of the water. A 38mm hole is far smaller than a catastrophic impact hole but is the most likely leak any of us will have and what mix of pumps you have is largely academic - the notion of keeping up with buckets or hand pump for more than a frantic exhausting 15 minutes is ridiculous.
 
Lazy Kipper said:
Earlier this year I intentionally opened the 38mm seacock to check for a blockage, the volume of water was astonishing, we have a very powerful centrifugal pump which emptied out at about a quarter the rate of inflow. What that means in practice is you can forget any bilge pump actually fighting a inflow of water, it's there to help you clean up - all hands to find and plug the leak, then get rid of the water. A 38mm hole is far smaller than a catastrophic impact hole but is the most likely leak any of us will have and what mix of pumps you have is largely academic - the notion of keeping up with buckets or hand pump for more than a frantic exhausting 15 minutes is ridiculous.
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AGreed

Also if you consider that most boats seem to have the batteries low down for obvious stability purposes then you won't have long for the electric pumps to work either. a big engine driven pump might work but a bit OTT unless you're planning on some real remote cruising.

Where pumps might come into play is an almost stopped leak that perhaps weeps a gallon every minute. a crack or even worse a hole will sink you. In those cases - get off a distress, have one person looking for leak to plug - everyone else prepares to abandon
 
pvb said:
I'd caution against this. Frankly, a bilge pump with a 19mm tube is going to be of little use in the emergency you're planning for. To shift any volume of water, you need a big pump with a correspondingly large pipe.

Like others, I'd suggest having at least one manual pump is a good idea.
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19mm is what is used on a 500gph pump. I can't see me manually pumping that much. I take the point about electrics and engine fail etc but I just think on my own I would prefer to have an electric pump going so that I could try to stem the leak or prepare for rescue/abandonment.
I just see a manual pump as a bit pointless unless it's for just getting rid of a bit of bilge water and I don't have that.
I also have the option of diverting the engine cooling inlet. I could have that pipe of in less than a minute. If the water was that high that my engine was compromised a manual pump isn't going to be any good anyway.
I really just don't know which way to be swayed. Obviously the best solution would be fit an electric pump and leave the manual as is.
 
Lazy Kipper said:
Earlier this year I intentionally opened the 38mm seacock to check for a blockage, the volume of water was astonishing, we have a very powerful centrifugal pump which emptied out at about a quarter the rate of inflow. What that means in practice is you can forget any bilge pump actually fighting a inflow of water, it's there to help you clean up - all hands to find and plug the leak, then get rid of the water. A 38mm hole is far smaller than a catastrophic impact hole but is the most likely leak any of us will have and what mix of pumps you have is largely academic - the notion of keeping up with buckets or hand pump for more than a frantic exhausting 15 minutes is ridiculous.
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This was my thoughts originally.
 
1) The engine cooling inlet takes very little water.
2) Anything electrical cannot be relied on totally.
I've known quite a few yachts have total electrical failure.
In the event of a lot of water getting below, it is a possibility that the electrics will fail. It's a scenario I would consider. If you look at reports of when things have gone wrong on yachts, I think you will find quite few that have had major leaks or an inversion and the water has been successfully pumped out manually.
You have to plug any major leaks first, the only thing that's going to beat even a 10mm hole is an f-off fire pump.

I've sailed a lot in the Solent etc on open boats, so have used manual bilge pumps a lot.
I'd not be without one, preferably two.
An electric as well, perhaps portable seems a reasonable thing to have for what they cost.
I have a Rule electric mounted on a rigid tube, it's good for deck rinsing, and it would save some effort in the event of a serious water-in-cabin event. It's also been used on a long 12V lead for bailing dinghies etc.

I have seen a lot of 12V bilge pumps fail, they are seen as throwaway items by rib owners and open boat sailors.
Many of them don't pump to a great height, if permanently installed, you may need two, to use the outlet on the low side.
But the centrifugal ones are weak on non-return valves, so you seriously don't want the outlet going under water...
 
Spyro said:
19mm is what is used on a 500gph pump. I can't see me manually pumping that much.
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Think you need to take gph figures with a whacking great lump of salt. IIRC when testing and specifying they are lifting a very short distance so making the pump work with a light load. WHen built into a boat with a much bigger lift the output will be much less.
 
Electric pumps only work at one speed, whereas Manual ones work faster the more scared you get.

Just saying... :encouragement:
 
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