Manual lifejackets. Am I missing something?

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We have manual jackets for the reasons given above, Brendan and Ships Cat.
We have upgraded the jackets to strobe lights, crotch straps, sprayhoods, and have attached harnesses to them.
We also have hard points in the companionway, cockpit, helm and foredeck, and jackstays too.

It is purely a personal decision on our boat if you wear a jacket, a harness or both, but I firmly request the wearing of jackets when I think that the 1st reef ought to go in. As our reefing is all done from the cockpit, this is not traumatic.
Lynn tends to wear her jacket more than a mile or two offshore. Its what she is happy with.

I had a jacket go off while I was working the foredeck in a race. Oh how the hyenas aft of the shrouds laughed as I struggled /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif
 
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However, I now wear a lifejacket 95% of the time for the following reasons:

1. It would be a real bummer to drown when having a lifejacket would have saved you. More so if you'd be leaving your young kids fatherless.

2. A significant proportion of my MOB drills don't go as smoothly as planned.

3. If you're going to wear a lifejacket, the best time to put it on is as you set off, rather than when you suddenly need to put in a reef or do an urgent piece of foredeck work in the open sea.

4. They're not really that inconvenient to wear. If you're going to be putting on a harness, why not have a small sausage of inflatable material around your neck.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sure there is no right or wrong and the nice thing about sailing is that it is a hobby with no experts or certainties or any real regulation...
but:-
1)do you actually know anybody who has fallen in with a life jacket on that would have died if they did not have a life jacket on?
2) man overboard drills are fine in fully crewed boats - seldom go well and are almost never carried out at night or in near gale conditions... see below
3) if you are going on deck to reef or whatever in dodgy or night conditions then you need a safety harness - so if you do slip or fall you will remain attached to the boat. In rough weather or at night it can be very difficult to find and then recover anyone from the sea - sometimes impossible...
4) They are inconvenient to wear, spoil the tan, will wear out with 24/7 use and may get damaged in the normal run of life on board.. better kept safe and secure in a locker for the day the boat is actually sinking or you have to jump into a raging sea to get picked up by a helicopter...

Having posted all that everybody is free to do what makes them comfortable and happy whilst sailing... however the possible inadvertent damage to life jackets worn as a matter of course is worth considering.. I think.

Michael
 
Forum value ....

This thread is really making me think - not about the auto vs manual matter - but the wearing of. Also about other safety matters - safety harness / straps etc.

I have a reel of webbing on board that for ages - I have been intending to make up webbing safety lines on board. I have Manual inflate jackets on board that hang on the hook - rarely used.

I think it's time I started to change my ways .... I can actually show I do wear it at times :>

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I wear a harness on board at night or out of the cockpit. I wear a manual lifejacket, with crotch strap, for all dinghy transfers. I prefer to control when and where I inflate it; and it is easy to carry out annual serviceing of a manual lifejacket (but how many people do?)
I wear an automatic lifejacket, new this year, when working on the club's mooring barge, where the risk of unconscious immersion may be deemed to be greater; but note that the hammer mechanism has a renewal date of 2010. How many users of automatic lifejackets are aware of their serviceability?
 
BUT, here in NZ (and I suspect most other countries are much less maritime oriented):

More people drown from just falling in the water from land than drown from any incidents at all involving decked power or keelboats (include catamarans in that definition /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif) - obviously that risk involves the whole population rather than just the boating one, but should we all always wear lifejackets then even when on land (including in the bath which seems a high risk area when you look at the statistics)?

More people drown in cars than do from decked power or keel boats, again the driving population is bigger than the boating one but should we all wear lifejackets in cars AND should they be manual or auto inflating?

More private aeroplane users die in aircraft crashes than people drown in decked powerboat or keelboat accidents (and the population of private aircraft users is much less than boat users in NZ) so should all people in private aircraft wear parachutes? In fact a goodly few of those come down in the sea so should they wear both parachutes AND lifejackets?

I had a very interesting lesson when I was a teenager. I took a good friend out sailing in a dinghy on a blustery day - we ended up capsized and my friend who was both a very good swimmer and a pretty solid sort of person went into a blind panic and basically froze and went into jibberish. As a kid it was a problem I had to sort out all by myself with both of us in the water. That was a real lesson to me as to how some people see the sea when suddenly dumped in it rather than voluntarily getting in. We who go to sea should fear it and respect it but we must remain sensible as to what the real risks are and that we are on it for fun, not as a fear mongering punishment.

I sometime wonder what fears are generated in land type people if they are taken aboard a private boat and it all becomes lifejackets this and may be worn, and liferaft that, and if this happens that, etc when they know very well if they take aride on a small commercial ferry or a charter fishing trip, dolphin watching, etc they are not expected to wear the bludy things and likely will not even be told where they are stowed (apart from the signage).

An interesting, and I think wise, current thrust here in NZ is that the best way to save lives is for people to actually have at least a minimal swimming ability and some level of confidence that falling in does not mean drowning (although I agree with Michael, heaven forbid /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif, that falling in of aboat in bad conditions may mean drowning lifejacket or no lifejacket).

John
 
'Would he have drowned if he'd been wearing a lifejacket?' is always an imponderable. I would guess that in 99% of cases of people drowning while not wearing lifejackets, wearing one would have kept them alive in the water for longer.

On the wear and tear point, most jackets will do at least half-a-dozen typical cruising seasons. Like flares, I don't begrudge having to replace them.

Finally, it might be worth recognising that among the sample of people saying "I've never worn a lifejacket in X years afloat" there's the potential of survivor bias!

It's horses for courses really - I guess I'll have a greater appetite for risk once my kids have grown up!
 
In extreme youth, I discarded MN lifejacket when crewing an Enterprise in mid winter. Toe strap broke, and I went in. Boat capsized 20 yards away. I was an experienced swimmer and virtually full-time sailor. Immediate effect of dunking was shock. Desperate struggle to swim 20m, fully clothed to capsized dinghy.

Now, always wear manual lifejacket, with harness, and rig jackstays. Biggest risk is in the tender. Possibilities are tender tipping due to wash, or missing the boarding ladder. Also, if I fall overboard from the boat, I have no confidence in the ability or even the willingness of my crew to recover me, so may be OB for some time!.

I wear a manual Crewsaver, boat jackets are XM automatics, because they came with spare re-arm kits, at a reasonable price. These also have harnesses.

I carry a reasonable level of MOB recovery gear, on the pushpit, as I think this is more necessary with a relatively short handed family boat, than with a fully practiced crew.
 
At last a mention of the most dangerous part of sailing and the time we are least likely to wear a LJ. - going ashore in the dinghy, especially at night. It's a drag walking round town wearing a LJ and people - even some fellow forumites - think it is posing. Result: hardly anyone wears one for that trip to the pub and return in the dark yet that is the most likely time to drown, falling out of an overloaded dinghy through hitting something in the dark, probably with a fair level of alcohol on board.

What's really needed is something a bit easier to wear casually ashore. On board, a harness is far more use.
 
Hi John

You and I long ago discovered a similarity of views on this subject!

For information however, we carry Hammer automatic jackets with built in harnesses, for use when we meet the ultimate storm. However, being much less gung ho these days than we once were, ie downwind hoolies are OK'ish but upwinders aren't, I had to think where they were actually stowed. They are still in the original packaging, never been wet and only came out to be adjusted for fit. before the flames reach the tender bits, I DO actually know where they are because I checked them over this winter past - then put them back. We DO also have separate harnesses, fixed lifeline points in the cockpit (accessible from below for coming on deck) and full length WIRE jackstays (I would never trust webbing) along the decks. However we do all our reefing, genoa and slab reefed main, from the cockpit and so going on deck is very rarely needed.

I too wonder why so many feel unsafe on their own boats without a lifejacket yet will happily go without in a possibly smaller, older commercial craft like a local ferry with spotty teenager on the wheel.

I'm also 100% with Ian Grant however that small kids on pontoons or messing around in the tender MUST wear a lifejacket.

We don't wear lifejackets in the tender. We have a Marina berth at home so the question doesn't arise to/from a mooring and if we are going ashore in the tender it will be in suitable conditions not to need lifejackets or we will stay put, or move the big boat. We did wear buoyancy aids sailboarding, 'cos we weren't very good and the padding reduced the bruises getting back on the thing.

I can feel the heat around the feet already.

Robin
 
Did my first aid course last week and we watched an interesting if cheesy video from the mid 80's with Duncan Goodhue in a tank of water at 10 degrees, the temperature in the solent goes up to a heady 14 in autumn. When first dropped in he couldn't swim for 30 seconds and was floundering around, it was another 10 minutes before his arms and legs packed up and they hauled him out.

They reckon at 10 degrees you will last about 35 minutes before your core temperature drops to the point where your heart stops. It seems a shame that without a jacket you might have drowned 25 minutes earlier while your mates were working out how to start the motor and operate the radio.

I only used to wear them in the dark or when a reef went in but I might change my view now.
 
Interesting bunch of replies.
For the record I own a Hammer auto jobbie with inbuilt harness and crotch straps and only tend to wear it after dark, in fog or for deckwork where I feel the need to be clipped on and, of course, for trips in the dinghy.
Might treat myself to a harness as that sounds like a good idea when it's perhaps not essential to wear the jacket but things are a bit on the 'bumpy' side.
My previous jacket was a 'regular' auto one but I changed this for the Hammer after a couple inflated on a friends boat after he gave it a wash down in the marina. Figured if that will set them off then they woildn't last 5 minutes doing a sail change in the middle of the North Sea.
 
My Crotch ....

I know .... wasn't till after getting home I realised Baltic jackets didn't have 'em.

I intend to sort that out ... "later".

The shorts are my "Banana-joes" as I called them ....sadly no-more.
 
But the whole point is that in conditions when you might involuntarily be thrown off your + 7 metres moboat or sailboat you should be wearing a safety harness. That safety harness should be clipped on to proper fixings and jackstays...

Nobody is talking about enterprises or kids on pontoons who can't swim or any other dinghy or sailboard,,, In those cases then the individual must decide for themselves if the circumstances require a life jacket or not. Seems sensible. Going ashore in a boats tender in bad weather, at night in the darkness is dangerous because it is so easy to fall in.
I'm also 100% with Ian Grant however that small kids on pontoons or messing around in the tender MUST wear a lifejacket.

It is very very difficult in calm conditions to fall in the water from a 7mtr plus mobo or sailboat.. If you do fall in it is very very easy in calm conditions to get pulled out again or for somebody to dive in after you... just not dangerous any more than crossing the road.

The moment the weather deteriorates or darkness falls the situation changes - falling int the sea in a gale or near gale in daytime will possibly kill you - life jacket or not - very difficult to get back to the overboard person in those conditions. In those conditions at night it is 'goodbye sweetheart' you will almost certainly die - chances of survival are very low.

The safety solution is to be wearing a safety harness and be properly hooked on! That way you are not separated from the boat. If that is the only solution in bad conditions - and I maintain it is - then why should it be any different in other situations? Life jackets are vital for the transfer to the life raft or jumping in the sea for the helicopter to pick you up or as the mast disappeared beneath the surface..

However it is a free world thank goodness and if people are happier wearing life jackets then that's fine... The inflatable type should be inspected and serviced several times a season just in case they have snagged or got inadvertently damaged during daily usage...

Michael

Michael
 
The reason I have a manual life jacket is this; If the boom cracks me around the head and knocks me out, I couldn't care less if I drown, because I wont know about it. If however, my boat sinks or I fall in accidentaly in rough water, I absolutely don't want to drown, so I'll pull the toggle.

I'd rather have the option of getting in the water without it going off than it saving my life while I was unconcious only to find I'm left in the middle of nowhere with no radio, cold and looking forward to a slow death.
 
"It is very very difficult in calm conditions to fall in the water from a 7mtr plus mobo or sailboat.."
Actually, I reckon that's the time I'm most likely go go for an involuntary swim!

If it's bumpy or blowy and I have to go forward, I know it and I'm clipped on and holding tight. On a calm day, I'm more relaxed, using both hands to do whatever just as the wash from the panamax container ship that went by 10 minutes ago catches up with us.

I know it ain't right - I should be alert at all times, but I'm being realistic about human, or at least my, nature.

BTW, I have wire jackstays and ordinary auto jackets with harnesses. I wear one, and clip on, on the foredeck in anything but the calmest weather and anywhere outside at night or if conditions warrant it, and in the dinghy in less than ideal conditions especially if solo or at night.
 
I have manual jackets as we have a cat, I recently purchased 2 new jackets for me and crew and after much consideration kept with the manual jackets. The greatest risk for us would be to invert and the fear of being pinned to the floor by an auto jacket was the main reason for my choice.

The layout of the boat means being hit by the boom is very small indeed. We always 'now' wear jackets in the tender. This decision came after Keith and Allan were drowned tending moorings in Barmouth and the day my crew tried to drown us by stepping on the gunwhale on the tender when entering from a pontoon. luckily it was empty at the time!

My rules for jackets are when single handing, i.e. offwatch down below or asleep, but generally not unless going up on deck, must also clip on, hard to do in a calm sunny sea, but going over in the day and not being seen is as serious as going over at night. I always leave it up to crew to wear or not wear jackets, I have never yet felt the need to order that jackets are worn....

I also bought manuals as on a few occasions, one of us has had to go in to cut off lines from the prop, impracticable in auto's. Also, as my joint problems progress, I am unsure how well I can swim or even tread water, I was a strong swimmer, I doubt that is still the case. I may start wearing my jacket more often due to this.

How many people carry re-arming kits on board? The lady in the shop when I bought a few spares to carry was shocked they were not to fix used jackets, thing is with modern jackets they are next to useless once set off. Not much cop on a long passage if you set one off....

Do have crotch straps on all; and lights on 'our' jackets, but nothing else, I do not see the use of a face cover that is kept on the belt, I doubt you could actually set it in place in the conditions that requires it....
 
Likewise when it comes to the dinghy, we also just don't use it if conditions are tippy. We are required by law here to carry lifejackets and so do so in the dinghy but for that just use cheap stuffed ones (stuffed as in stuffing, not as in wrecked /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif) in case they go walkabout - we rarely wear them though. However, both my wife and myself can swim and we always follow shorelines in the dinghy when able ie we will go around the shore of a bay in the dinghy rather than cut across it.

As yourself, Michael and others have also said we do the jackstay, harness, clip on bit and as normally only myself and wifie aboard have a absolute rule that while underway no one goes on deck without the other in the cockpit (which I recognise could be hard to keep when long distance cruising and conditions require frequent sail changes).

On of the guys I am working with in Paradise was washed out the back of a race boat with an open transom on his tether with the boat doing over 15 knots. Fortunately he was able to be pulled on board. If he is in the office when I am back there again next week I will ask him how he thought he would have got on if he had have had an auto inflating jacket on - I suspect the answer will be along the lines of not now being here if he had.

But there again, not so long ago, in our home waters a crew member of a race boat was knocked into the sea unconcious during a gybe round a mark and drowned before he could be recovered (in fact he was not found until days after). He actually had no jacket on at all but maybe would have survived if the crew had been able to recover him from the sea in the conditions.

As I have already said, most accidents off keelboats that I know of have been off raceboats.

So, as far as the auto versus manual argument goes, I guess you win some and lose some according to the nature of the accident. Safest, as many are saying, is don't go over in the first place - lifejacket or no lifejact, auto or manual. The lifejacket thing is of secondary importance and I am never ashamed to crawl along the deck.

John
 
I suspect you have to take different boats abilities and type and operating area into account.

If I was sailing blue water, I'd not wear an autoinflating life jacket, and be far more concerned about clipping on with a safety line to stop me going overboard.

Operating a high speed small speedboat, if I hit something substantial (I've seen huge lumps of timber I've barely avoided) at 30+knots, the chances are I wouldn't be in the boat a second later, and probably not very concious. But it wouldn't be practical in a boat that size to clip everyone on to something strong enough to keep you all on board. The boat would probably be sinking quickly by then anyway, so probably wouldn't want to be attached.

However, I boat in an area where you will be rescued within 10-15 minutes if you can contact help quickly, hence waterproof hand held vhf and pen flares on my person rather than on the boat.

An auto inflation life jacket in those cirumstance makes sense.
 
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