Twister_Ken
Well-known member
Re: Interesting
If it saves a life (and it might) it's worth it.
If it saves a life (and it might) it's worth it.
Man overboard
- Thread starter sailbadthesinner
- Start date
longjohnsilver
Well-known member
Re: jon nuttall
Yes you do Matt, but it wasn't me!
Yes you do Matt, but it wasn't me!
Ohdrat
New member
My first capsize drill (dinghy sailing as a kid) was in Loch Linnhe.. dammn cold.. I had acheived my honours self survival recently and could hardly swim it was sooo cold and this was August.. and yes of course I had a life jacket (not a bouyancy aid) on ..
Actually most important is not to go over in the 1st place..
For reference when I first started "big" boat sailing on the Clyde we were shown how to use a spare hallyard etc to winch a body on board even using a spare sail, as a body sling/stretcher, if the person was inujured..
The other thing to note is that this is where high freeboard is less safe and will hinder a rescue.
Actually most important is not to go over in the 1st place..
For reference when I first started "big" boat sailing on the Clyde we were shown how to use a spare hallyard etc to winch a body on board even using a spare sail, as a body sling/stretcher, if the person was inujured..
The other thing to note is that this is where high freeboard is less safe and will hinder a rescue.
alanporter
New member
Re: DOn\'t warm up too fast
I strongly agree that you should not warm up a hypothermic victim from external sources of heat. A foil thermal blanket and warm drinks only. External heat will dilate the surface blood vessels, taking away what little heat the body core still has.
My professional technique comprised thermal foil blanket, warm intravenous fluids, warm moisturised oxygen to breath, and warm fluids per rectum. There again I was a medical officer in the Navy and had all the gear at hand. Today, on my boat, just the foil blanket and warm drinks. Absolutely no alcohol.
Alan Porter
I strongly agree that you should not warm up a hypothermic victim from external sources of heat. A foil thermal blanket and warm drinks only. External heat will dilate the surface blood vessels, taking away what little heat the body core still has.
My professional technique comprised thermal foil blanket, warm intravenous fluids, warm moisturised oxygen to breath, and warm fluids per rectum. There again I was a medical officer in the Navy and had all the gear at hand. Today, on my boat, just the foil blanket and warm drinks. Absolutely no alcohol.
Alan Porter
Forbsie
New member
Re: DOn\'t warm up too fast
I refuse to ask!!!
No!!!
Absolutely not!
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.arweb.co.uk/argallery/forbsie?&page=1>My Project</A>
I refuse to ask!!!
No!!!
Absolutely not!
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.arweb.co.uk/argallery/forbsie?&page=1>My Project</A>
alanporter
New member
Re: DOn\'t warm up too fast
What's the problem Forbsie ? Is it the warm fluids per rectum that bothers you ? Much more pleasant than cold !
Alan Porter
What's the problem Forbsie ? Is it the warm fluids per rectum that bothers you ? Much more pleasant than cold !
Alan Porter
G
Guest
Guest
\"too fast\" is not the same as not at all
see the following link regarding treatment for hypothermia
http://www.hypothermia.org/hypothermia.htm
True, the best warming is internal and warm inhalation, but if you're on a boat that will take more than half an hour to bring professional help to the man overboard, simply having them wrapped in a blanket doesn't seem to be enough. What they warn about here is that getting the victim to move about (and, for example, be put into a hot shower, etc.) will cause the cold outer blood to further cool the person's core temperature and cause problems with the heart. But so will just letting them sit wrapped up with no additional heat provided - their core temperature will continue to drop as it tries to warm the extremities. Of course there are better procedures than a hot water bottle, but in the absense of them, it is still better than doing nothing. Drinking warm liquids is definitely good, but the person couldn't possibly drink enough to help keep the core temperature up. Of course, if you wanted to use the hot water bottle to provide warm water enemas, that would be even better, provided you had a thermometer to prevent you from doing greater harm.
see the following link regarding treatment for hypothermia
http://www.hypothermia.org/hypothermia.htm
True, the best warming is internal and warm inhalation, but if you're on a boat that will take more than half an hour to bring professional help to the man overboard, simply having them wrapped in a blanket doesn't seem to be enough. What they warn about here is that getting the victim to move about (and, for example, be put into a hot shower, etc.) will cause the cold outer blood to further cool the person's core temperature and cause problems with the heart. But so will just letting them sit wrapped up with no additional heat provided - their core temperature will continue to drop as it tries to warm the extremities. Of course there are better procedures than a hot water bottle, but in the absense of them, it is still better than doing nothing. Drinking warm liquids is definitely good, but the person couldn't possibly drink enough to help keep the core temperature up. Of course, if you wanted to use the hot water bottle to provide warm water enemas, that would be even better, provided you had a thermometer to prevent you from doing greater harm.
Ohdrat
New member
Re: Warm water enemas
.. on a small cabin cruiser.. you have to be joking.. uggghhhhhhh and what with getting the temp right totally impracticle ..
I would follow my lifeguard training .. warm person with another body heat source ... putting a couple of hats on exposed head and fleeces around the shoulders work wonders.. particularly the hats..
Even given that it may take 30+ mins for Medical assistance I would resist the urge to use hot water bottles tho' I might be tempted by body temp water bottles ..externally... particularly if there was a shortage of spare naked bodies!
.. on a small cabin cruiser.. you have to be joking.. uggghhhhhhh and what with getting the temp right totally impracticle ..
I would follow my lifeguard training .. warm person with another body heat source ... putting a couple of hats on exposed head and fleeces around the shoulders work wonders.. particularly the hats..
Even given that it may take 30+ mins for Medical assistance I would resist the urge to use hot water bottles tho' I might be tempted by body temp water bottles ..externally... particularly if there was a shortage of spare naked bodies!
G
Guest
Guest
Is it the term \"hot water bottle\" the problem?
That's the term we've always used for the rubber bottle that serves many purposes - wrapped in a terry towel it warms one's bed before getting in; keeps one's feet warm all night; it's also used as an enema bottle if that's what's needed. When I was in the hospital a more sophisticated version of my home bottle was used to provide heat therapy for me. I'm not suggesting you boil the person - just provide gentle heat to prevent the person's core temperature from dropping further, which it would do if no additional heat was provided. Hats, wrappings, etc., might serve to prevent more heat from escaping, but as is pointed out in the web link I provided, the body's extremities are already cold and thus the body's core temperature will continue to lower as that colder blood is circulated. It's quite different from a person's just being chilled by the air, where wrapping up will allow the body's own metabolism to stop the chill - hypothermia is a dangerous lowering of body temperature where wrapping the body is as likely to insulate the body from external heat - keeping the cold in, since the body's own metabolism is seriously impaired by the massive heat loss. External heat needs to be provided, you're just arguing about how to do it. Sure, if you've got a few fellows who want to strip and jump in the bunk with the MOB, that's great, and indeed it's what was done for the fellow who went overboard for about 8 hours in the '92 Sidney-Hobart race. But lacking that, and in a boat without some heat source and half an hour away from medical help, more than passive measures are called for. Since a thermometer is a pretty basic addition to any first aid kit, most boats should have one on board.
That's the term we've always used for the rubber bottle that serves many purposes - wrapped in a terry towel it warms one's bed before getting in; keeps one's feet warm all night; it's also used as an enema bottle if that's what's needed. When I was in the hospital a more sophisticated version of my home bottle was used to provide heat therapy for me. I'm not suggesting you boil the person - just provide gentle heat to prevent the person's core temperature from dropping further, which it would do if no additional heat was provided. Hats, wrappings, etc., might serve to prevent more heat from escaping, but as is pointed out in the web link I provided, the body's extremities are already cold and thus the body's core temperature will continue to lower as that colder blood is circulated. It's quite different from a person's just being chilled by the air, where wrapping up will allow the body's own metabolism to stop the chill - hypothermia is a dangerous lowering of body temperature where wrapping the body is as likely to insulate the body from external heat - keeping the cold in, since the body's own metabolism is seriously impaired by the massive heat loss. External heat needs to be provided, you're just arguing about how to do it. Sure, if you've got a few fellows who want to strip and jump in the bunk with the MOB, that's great, and indeed it's what was done for the fellow who went overboard for about 8 hours in the '92 Sidney-Hobart race. But lacking that, and in a boat without some heat source and half an hour away from medical help, more than passive measures are called for. Since a thermometer is a pretty basic addition to any first aid kit, most boats should have one on board.
kingfisher
Well-known member
Re: DOn\'t warm up too fast
An average human body consists of 50-65%water. So that's 35-40 liters (=3-4 buckets) of water at 35°C (hypothermia). Do you really think that you can heat these up to 37.4°C with two mugs of warm cocoa or tea?
Well, at least it wouldn't hurt.
But the best way is still body to body contact. It's gradual, and it can cope with the body mass that nees to be warmed.
Don't wrap the victim in a blanket and think that he'll warm up on his own. Once hypothermia gets to a certain level, the bodies heat production is disrupted, and it will not heat up on its own, no matter how insulated.
Group of people on the pontoon: skipper is the one with the toolbox.
http://sirocco31.tripod.com
An average human body consists of 50-65%water. So that's 35-40 liters (=3-4 buckets) of water at 35°C (hypothermia). Do you really think that you can heat these up to 37.4°C with two mugs of warm cocoa or tea?
Well, at least it wouldn't hurt.
But the best way is still body to body contact. It's gradual, and it can cope with the body mass that nees to be warmed.
Don't wrap the victim in a blanket and think that he'll warm up on his own. Once hypothermia gets to a certain level, the bodies heat production is disrupted, and it will not heat up on its own, no matter how insulated.
Group of people on the pontoon: skipper is the one with the toolbox.
http://sirocco31.tripod.com
Aeolus_IV
New member
Re: Don\'t warm up too fast
No, just that it was a better use of the hot water than had been suggested. As already pointed out actively trying to warm up a person with hypothermia is fraught with risks more serious that the initial problem (this I had a vage understanding of, but not the extent). Sounds like best advice is to strip them, dry them, wrap up as warm as possible and lay them down to recover and make for port. If hypothermia is severe how many of us would have means to aid recovery if we had suitable knowledge and training?
Jeff.
No, just that it was a better use of the hot water than had been suggested. As already pointed out actively trying to warm up a person with hypothermia is fraught with risks more serious that the initial problem (this I had a vage understanding of, but not the extent). Sounds like best advice is to strip them, dry them, wrap up as warm as possible and lay them down to recover and make for port. If hypothermia is severe how many of us would have means to aid recovery if we had suitable knowledge and training?
Jeff.
