Man Over-Board Deployment - Student Project

BlueSkyNick said:
If the boat returns to the MOB but not yet ready to recover him, then give him a lifebuoy to hang on to until the boat comes back a second time.
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Would it not be better to give him a line to hold onto as well (or indeed a loop to put round himself) and keep boat and MOB together, rather than going away and coming back?

Pete
 
prv said:
Would it not be better to give him a line to hold onto as well (or indeed a loop to put round himself) and keep boat and MOB together, rather than going away and coming back?

Pete
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That is definitely an option, but if the boat is say going downwind at >2kts with the mainsail up, the crew need to get into a position to approach upwind and bring the boat to a stop. The casualty doesn't want to be towed around while this is going on.
 
BlueSkyNick said:
That is definitely an option, but if the boat is say going downwind at >2kts with the mainsail up, the crew need to get into a position to approach upwind and bring the boat to a stop. The casualty doesn't want to be towed around while this is going on.
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Agree that being towed at more than about two knots is no fun (we used to tow at that sort of speed for fun, and quickly learned not to go faster) but I think in my boat I'd be more inclined to counteract any remaining drive in the sails by using the engine in reverse, rather than risk separation.

I lost my last Tilley hat that way some years ago - it blew off the winch it was draped over, we executed a perfect crash-stop and return, but the person with the boat-hook was unable to grapple it (a telling difference from a bucket and fender). As the boat started to drift away, the helmsman said "leave it, we'll come round again" and so we did, but during the go-around we lost sight of it among the waves. Turned out the person detailed to watch it didn't have his contacts in, and hadn't thought to mention this when tasked as watcher! That was all under sail, no thought of engine - older RYA training - and a bunch of us on a charter boat with no clear skipper. But it demonstrates that you can make contact easily the first time, and still fail to regain it if you give it up. I'd be reluctant to do so.

Pete
 
BlueSkyNick said:
....
Deploying lifebuoys more than 5 seconds after the incident is a waste of time and manpower.

....
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Obviously the sooner the better, but even 30 seconds gives you a reference point for searching, which might be valuable in waves at night.
Obviously one hopes search does not come into it, but that has been the reality for some people.
Getting the gear in the water in 10 seconds should be easy, that means about 30m to swim, and at least a float when you get there.
30 seconds could be 100m, bythe time I'd swum that in oilies, I'd expect the boat to be well on its way back...
 
BlueSkyNick said:
That is definitely an option, but if the boat is say going downwind at >2kts with the mainsail up, the crew need to get into a position to approach upwind and bring the boat to a stop. The casualty doesn't want to be towed around while this is going on.
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Playing MoB procedures in the Solent, is much different to being offshore, or at night.
I would never leave a casualty.
Imagine being in the water, watching your boat leave, so they can practice manouvering?
Don't forget most yachts have engines, so turning to get upwind shouldn't be a problem, even at risk of rig failure.

Problem is even more pronounced, with usual husband/wife combination & husband as casualty.
Few practice enough, or at all & the so called RYA method (sail away, play with sails, try to return) is useful only as an exercise in sailing. Staying near/with casualty, is paramount IMO. Getting back on board is even more a problem when short crewed.
 
lw395 said:
Obviously the sooner the better, but even 30 seconds gives you a reference point for searching, which might be valuable in waves at night.
Obviously one hopes search does not come into it, but that has been the reality for some people.
Getting the gear in the water in 10 seconds should be easy, that means about 30m to swim, and at least a float when you get there.
30 seconds could be 100m, bythe time I'd swum that in oilies, I'd expect the boat to be well on its way back...
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When you are young & fit perhaps, but over 40 wearing full sailing kit, I doubt it for most on here.
 
prv said:
Agree that being towed at more than about two knots is no fun (we used to tow at that sort of speed for fun, and quickly learned not to go faster) but I think in my boat I'd be more inclined to counteract any remaining drive in the sails by using the engine in reverse, rather than risk separation.

I lost my last Tilley hat that way some years ago - it blew off the winch it was draped over, we executed a perfect crash-stop and return, but the person with the boat-hook was unable to grapple it (a telling difference from a bucket and fender). As the boat started to drift away, the helmsman said "leave it, we'll come round again" and so we did, but during the go-around we lost sight of it among the waves. Turned out the person detailed to watch it didn't have his contacts in, and hadn't thought to mention this when tasked as watcher! That was all under sail, no thought of engine - older RYA training - and a bunch of us on a charter boat with no clear skipper. But it demonstrates that you can make contact easily the first time, and still fail to regain it if you give it up. I'd be reluctant to do so.

Pete
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Crash stop is important.
At 5knts, you are a 1/4 mile away after 3 minutes.
At night,, or in big sea, your chances of finding casualty are small.
 
1) I suspect MOB is actually more likely to be from a racing yacht with several crew?
2) crash stop at night is very disorienting.

3) crash stops can go wrong. As an example, helm forgets or is not aware there is a preventer rigged.

Get the danbuoy in the water, then do a crash stop, it should be seconds.
For sure, you do not want to be farting about unclipping and untangling stuff, or trying to find the button to push.

I think there is a market for the OP's ideas, best, quick foolproof launching of the danbuoy and horseshoe, without risk of losing it accidentally.
 
alant said:
Crash stop is important.
At 5knts, you are a 1/4 mile away after 3 minutes.
At night,, or in big sea, your chances of finding casualty are small.
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Exactly, and first time round we were on top of that Tilley hat very quickly. The mistake was to deliberately leave it in order to manoeuvre about and line up for another "correct" approach.

By contrast, my regular crew lost his shoe overboard at the start of this season. I was on the helm, crash-stopped near it (probably within line-throwing range for a conscious person) and then while he was getting the boathook I quickly rolled in the jib, sheeted the main amidships, and started the engine to bring us right back on top of it.

A skate shoe with the laces tucked tightly away is a very difficult thing to grab with a boathook, so it took us ages, maybe ten minutes, to actually pick it up (in the end by hand, leaning down under the lower guardrail). All that time, I was jockeying us back and forth with the engine to keep the shoe alongside while he tried to hook it. After a bit, we'd inevitably drift sideways away from it, and I'd apply power and hook round to get back close again. But at all times we were within a boat's length of that shoe and in no danger of losing touch with it. That's exactly what I'd do if it were a person - stay close!

Pete
 
Graham_Wright said:
Is a crash stop the same as tacking up wind (!) to heave to?

That always seems to worth a try and dead easy if you are on a reach. You finish upwind of the casualty and not far away.
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When you try it, sheet the main in hard & you can safely do 360's, continuously turning around or very near casualty, even leaving the helm when appropriate, to throw a line. Method can be very useful if only one crew (eg Wife) left onboard & no need to remember complicated manouvers under sail.
 
alant said:
When you try it, sheet the main in hard & you can safely do 360's, continuously turning around or very near casualty, even leaving the helm when appropriate, to throw a line. Method can be very useful if only one crew (eg Wife) left onboard & no need to remember complicated manouvers under sail.
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Agreed. Lone crew (especially if weak or meek) must also send a Mayday ASAP to get external assistance for recovery.
 
alant said:
Playing MoB procedures in the Solent, is much different to being offshore, or at night.
I would never leave a casualty.
Imagine being in the water, watching your boat leave, so they can practice manouvering?
Don't forget most yachts have engines, so turning to get upwind shouldn't be a problem, even at risk of rig failure.

Problem is even more pronounced, with usual husband/wife combination & husband as casualty.
Few practice enough, or at all & the so called RYA method (sail away, play with sails, try to return) is useful only as an exercise in sailing. Staying near/with casualty, is paramount IMO. Getting back on board is even more a problem when short crewed.
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Several points:
Staying near is paramount, but above all the boat needs to come to a near stop and be under control when alongside the casualty.

I'd rather see the boat sail away about 5 boat lengths. and come back than run me over or in a hurry.
ALso, need to avoid a second incident such as uncontrolled gybe knocking somebody overboard, etc

Current RYA thinking is very much based on the assumption that modern engines start and are usable so getting back quick is definitely the order of the day.

There is no RYA method, except to encourage each skipper to determine a routine and method that works for him/her which he can teach to his own crew AND PRACTICE.
 
Recovery is the biggest problem after keeping casualty in sight.

We've only lost people over the side when fully crewed racing then it's easy and quick to get them back. Two up lifelines always attached unless flat calm.
 
alant said:
Easy swimming range?
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alant said:
When you are young & fit perhaps, but over 40 wearing full sailing kit, I doubt it for most on here.
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Well over 60 when I did my liferaft in a swimming pool course. I found swimming easy, either on my back or on my front with LJ partially deflated. Might not find it so easy in waves and cold water, though, and the HELP position does rather count against it.
 
awol said:
Well over 60 when I did my liferaft in a swimming pool course. I found swimming easy, either on my back or on my front with LJ partially deflated. Might not find it so easy in waves and cold water, though, and the HELP position does rather count against it.
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Try it first (in full kit), it might change your mind.
I went MoB from a ships ladder in North Sea, certainly made me realise how difficult it was.
 
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