Making up a tapered furling line

[thinwater]

I believe your thought is correct - most people use their furler as a device to reef the headsail - other wise you have a head sail that can only be used, sensibly, upto 20/25 knots and then needs to be furled completely - leaving you with no headsail at all. Unless of course you are monied and have an inner forestay or 2 furlers.

Trying to remove a large unfurled headsail from a foil - is simply a non starter. The sail will be flogging, the friction between sail and foil will lock the sail solid. If you are trying to do this it is because the wind is up and seas have built. If you get the sail off the foil exactly how are you meant to handle this monster on the deck? Sometimes I think the suggestions are made by people who have never been 'out at sea' and the suggesting are impossible and dangerous.

Most people are sailing as a cruising couple or family not as a troupe of gorillas. If the task cannot be completed largely single handed - the task cannot be completed.

Like many devices on the family yacht a furler is a god send and makes family sailing possible to all of us - this is until the furler, does not furl. then its a disaster waiting to happen (and the family will never come sailing with you again). Check your furler, and the other critical bits of kit, before you get into panic mode. If you furl your headsail under tension (full of wind) it will furl tightly and you will find that if you do not have extra turns and you cannot furl completely. You need extra turns on the drum - which also allows you to 'furl' the sheets round the sail better securing the sail (as mentioned on an earlier post).

I see maybe 2-3 headsails flogged to death and torn to ribbons for headsails that have slowly, or rapidly, unfurled due to inattention in a stronger wind event. You lose money in a destroyed sail and upset the neighbours from the noise of the flogging sail (at 3am).

Play with your furler and line on a calm day in the marina, on the swing mooring. Add a few extra turns on the drum, make sure the drum loads evenly (or the furling line can jamb in the 'cage').

Jonathan

Yes... and no.

I commonly use my genoa, deeply reefed, in 30 knots. The sailmaker was brilliant, and the luff padding and clew maintained good shape right down to a hankercheif. Best cruising cut I have seen. 2-3 reefs in the main and just a bit of jib is a good combination.

Hauling it down in a blow... depends. I've done it once in 20 knots and once in a bit more. The second was actually easier because I was more experienced, but neither was epic. I blanketed it behind the main, kept some tension on the sheet, and just worked it down. No more than a few minutes. However, this is LOT easier on the broad tramp of a cat than on a mono!

The cause? The furler bearings (plastic) failed during a cruise. The first was a surprise, the second less so. I replaced them with stainless, used a good waterproof grease, and added a drip seal. That did the trick for 10 years and counting.

---

But yes, they have their problems. On my F-24, the jib furler is brilliant, but I need to replace the line with something small on the reacher. Sometimes I can roll it tight enough without running out of line. Most likely it will be Dyneema covered with polyester on the tail.

 

[Neeves]

Yes... and no.

I commonly use my genoa, deeply reefed, in 30 knots. The sailmaker was brilliant, and the luff padding and clew maintained good shape right down to a hankercheif. Best cruising cut I have seen. 2-3 reefs in the main and just a bit of jib is a good combination.

Hauling it down in a blow... depends. I've done it once in 20 knots and once in a bit more. The second was actually easier because I was more experienced, but neither was epic. I blanketed it behind the main, kept some tension on the sheet, and just worked it down. No more than a few minutes. However, this is LOT easier on the broad tramp of a cat than on a mono!

The cause? The furler bearings (plastic) failed during a cruise. The first was a surprise, the second less so. I replaced them with stainless, used a good waterproof grease, and added a drip seal. That did the trick for 10 years and counting.

---

But yes, they have their problems. On my F-24, the jib furler is brilliant, but I need to replace the line with something small on the reacher. Sometimes I can roll it tight enough without running out of line. Most likely it will be Dyneema covered with polyester on the tail.

If you have 2-3 reefs in the main and a semi furled Genoa and for whatever reason need to remove the Genoa then the handkerchief of the main will do little to blanket the Genoa that you need to unfurl to remove it. Our 3rd reef reduces the main by 75% to a handkerchief 15^2m and the unfurled Genoa 33^2m. If we are flying our screecher, also 45^2m, then furling behind the main is standard practice - but the main will be unreefed at this stage (and we will be reaching)

Its not perfect but if we have a forecast of 25 knots or more we will remove the Genoa completely long before it gets to gusting 15 knots and replace with a No 3. Both sails fit the furler. It would unusual for us to remove the Genoa 'at sea' and we would prefer to do all of this at anchor - having listened to the forecast. Playing with a 33^2m head sail at sea with only 2 people is a night mare and ensures both crew members are sodden by the time it is truly tamed. Using the No 3 means we might not reef the main so early and invariably we would be on a reach as sailing to windward in 30 knots with big seas is seldom pleasurable (and caused so many of the recent Sydney Hobart fleet to retire). But each to their own

We are fair weather sailors - we gave up racing and do it for pleasure not bragging rights.

Take care, stay safe - and lets hope 2022 brings us a year much better than the previous 2 years.

Jonathan

 

[LadyInBed]

I would make up a tapered furling line like this:

 

[thinwater]

If you have 2-3 reefs in the main and a semi furled Genoa and for whatever reason need to remove the Genoa then the handkerchief of the main will do little to blanket the Genoa that you need to unfurl to remove it. Our 3rd reef reduces the main by 75% to a handkerchief 15^2m and the unfurled Genoa 33^2m. If we are flying our screecher, also 45^2m, then furling behind the main is standard practice - but the main will be unreefed at this stage (and we will be reaching)

Its not perfect but if we have a forecast of 25 knots or more we will remove the Genoa completely long before it gets to gusting 15 knots and replace with a No 3. Both sails fit the furler. It would unusual for us to remove the Genoa 'at sea' and we would prefer to do all of this at anchor - having listened to the forecast. Playing with a 33^2m head sail at sea with only 2 people is a night mare and ensures both crew members are sodden by the time it is truly tamed. Using the No 3 means we might not reef the main so early and invariably we would be on a reach as sailing to windward in 30 knots with big seas is seldom pleasurable (and caused so many of the recent Sydney Hobart fleet to retire). But each to their own

We are fair weather sailors - we gave up racing and do it for pleasure not bragging rights.

Take care, stay safe - and lets hope 2022 brings us a year much better than the previous 2 years.

Jonathan

Correct. Three reefs blankets the reefed jib, but not once you open it up. This highlights another reason I do not like sailing with a full genoa and no main, as you often see. Hard to get the genoa in once it really starts to blow.

My PDQ does not balance well unless the genoa is at least as full as the main. The keel is technically just a little too far forward. I re-shaped it and moved the COE aft, but I could have done more. Thus, I reef the main before I roll up genoa, and I put in the second reef about the same time I start rolling genoa up. Main-only or tiny jib does not work. In fact, I never use the jib in my avitar. This is not a good thing, it is a boat design error we learn to live with.

 

[Neeves]

Returning to the furling line

We use uncovered dyneema which stores fairly flat on the drum and have spliced braid on braid polyester tail. My splicing is none too perfect, maybe need a lot more practice (but really we have little need for splicing). To neaten up the splice I have oversewn the splice with dyneema braided fishing line. The polyester is never on the drum, only the dyneema, and we never 'touch' the dyneema - it never reaches the cockpit. Its a balance and depends on how long your decks are and how big the drum.

If we leave reefing, or furling, a bit late we don't think about it the furling lines goes straight on a winch.

We found with our screecher that when sailing over waves the headsail luffs and fills and the drum rotates part of a turn. This results in the furling line going slack and 'less slack' and we found the furling line could fall off the drum. We resolved this by adding bungy to the tail of the furling line such that the bungy always kept the furling line in tension but there was enough give in the bungy to allow the line to be grasped and then furled. Our screecher furling line thus routes up the sidedeck to the transom, round a turning block and all the way back almost to the bow but only 2/3 of the return is bungy - the part at the cockpit is polyester.

Maybe this needs a drawing?

Jonathan

 

[Daydream believer]

I have only lightly scanned the thread but may have missed it.
If the OP has had the boat for a while,( or if the boat is ageing- probably not with under deck lines) , one might ask how long his problem with the furling has been as it has. These things creap up on one & suddenly one misses the obvious one of wear in the furler.
Nobody has suggested slackening the halyard a small amount. my 18 year old Facnor does get a bit stiff & I sometimes crank the halyard a bit tight. Easing it a bit to take the weight off the bearings makes it so much easier.

 

[stranded]

I have only lightly scanned the thread but may have missed it.
If the OP has had the boat for a while,( or if the boat is ageing- probably not with under deck lines) , one might ask how long his problem with the furling has been as it has. These things creap up on one & suddenly one misses the obvious one of wear in the furler.
Nobody has suggested slackening the halyard a small amount. my 18 year old Facnor does get a bit stiff & I sometimes crank the halyard a bit tight. Easing it a bit to take the weight off the bearings makes it so much easier.

Thanks for this. She is getting on a bit now - 15 this year - but I am pretty sure the friction problem is in the run of the line under the deck - you can feel it by just pulling the line with no load on it, and the furler turns freely by hand. I have though booked the riggers to give it a thorough check/overhaul.

I have also tried different halyard and backstay tension combinations and you are right, that does make quite a difference, but I think I have taken that as far as it will go.

Don’t want to overplay the problem - it’s always been this way, it works, and if I do the ideal - downwind, blanketed by main - I can do it by hand in most normal conditions. If not, it runs straight to an electric halyard winch (which we use very cautiously!). But there is definitely friction in the line, I am going to be losing strength over the years. And when I put the big genny on (it’s been in the garage for the last few years) then the line rub on the inside of the drum is going to be more of an issue, so now seems like the time to try to improve things.

 

[dunedin]

Thanks for this. She is getting on a bit now - 15 this year - but I am pretty sure the friction problem is in the run of the line under the deck - you can feel it by just pulling the line with no load on it, and the furler turns freely by hand. I have though booked the riggers to give it a thorough check/overhaul.

I hadn’t realised your fuller line runs under the deck. In which case, going way back to your post #1, I would be extremely careful about changing from a 10mm line to a join from 6mm to 12mm running under deck. This will have a fatter section than currently going through any under deck constraints. Plus the join will be out of sight / out of mind …….. until the stitching chafes under the deck and either jams or parts.
As you have an electric winch, provided the rigger has checked the system usingnthe same technique we do might be a solution - two turns only on the electric winch and never use the self trailer. This gives power assistance but when (not if) something catches or is over stressed, the rope slips on the winch, both avoiding causing damage and giving immediate feedback to check and resolve.
Used this way we have 8mm high quality cruising dyneema for the reefing line - works fine and no under deck joints.
We did add a “carbon” pulley block to replace the deadeye lead on the foredeck, which improved the angle of lead into the under deck and reduced friction..

 

[stranded]

I hadn’t realised your fuller line runs under the deck. In which case, going way back to your post #1, I would be extremely careful about changing from a 10mm line to a join from 6mm to 12mm running under deck. This will have a fatter section than currently going through any under deck constraints. Plus the join will be out of sight / out of mind …….. until the stitching chafes under the deck and either jams or parts.
As you have an electric winch, provided the rigger has checked the system usingnthe same technique we do might be a solution - two turns only on the electric winch and never use the self trailer. This gives power assistance but when (not if) something catches or is over stressed, the rope slips on the winch, both avoiding causing damage and giving immediate feedback to check and resolve.
Used this way we have 8mm high quality cruising dyneema for the reefing line - works fine and no under deck joints.
We did add a “carbon” pulley block to replace the deadeye lead on the foredeck, which improved the angle of lead into the under deck and reduced friction..

Thanks - yes, it was the step between lines out of sight that was worrying me. I have been looking at covered dyneema and Liros Racer 8mm seems a bit stronger than the cruising ones - 3800kg BS, which should be enough to deal with most foreseeable cock ups, and they claim decent handling and clutch grip.

Oh, and I like your way of using the winch - thanks.

 

[dunedin]

Thanks - yes, it was the step between lines out of sight that was worrying me. I have been looking at covered dyneema and Liros Racer 8mm seems a bit stronger than the cruising ones - 3800kg BS, which should be enough to deal with most foreseeable cock ups, and they claim decent handling and clutch grip.

Oh, and I like your way of using the winch - thanks.

We have Lyros Dynamic Plus in steel blue (which they claim has better abrasion resistance) Liros 8mm Dynamic Plus Dyneema - Sheets, Halyards, Control Lines

Replaced a cheaper cruising dyneema that chafed under serious abuse

 

[stranded]

Weir

We have Lyros Dynamic Plus in steel blue (which they claim has better abrasion resistance) Liros 8mm Dynamic Plus Dyneema - Sheets, Halyards, Control Lines

Replaced a cheaper cruising dyneema that chafed under serious abuse

Weird that a particular colour can be that much tougher! Think I’ll probably go with the racer for the higher strength and pull it more often to check for wear until I see how it is doing.

 

[BabaYaga]

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but could be worth pointing out that Liros makes a tapered line especially for this purpose:
Taper Pro, 11 mm | www.liros.com
I have been using the smaller 9/6mm version for a few years and found it excellent.
(Personally I would not dare to make my first attempt at braid on braid dyneema splicing on such a critical line...)

 

[stranded]

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but could be worth pointing out that Liros makes a tapered line especially for this purpose:
Taper Pro, 11 mm | www.liros.com
I have been using the smaller 9/6mm version for a few years and found it excellent.
(Personally I would not dare to make my first attempt at braid on braid dyneema splicing on such a critical line...)

Thanks Baba - all suggestions very welcome! Yes, I did see that and it looked very interesting but I struggled to find a UK supplier for the 11mm and then the responses above gave me the willies about the forces that might be exerted on the furling line when the sail is reefed. So with no source I have been able to find giving actual data I have been focussing primarily on strength. There is also Dunedin’s good point about the taper being out of sight under the deck so hard to monitor how it is behaving. But if I could find a UK supplier and some authoritative reassurance that 3200 daN is strong enough, I might yet give it a go. Maybe I’ll give Jimmy Green a call next week.

 

[thinwater]

Thanks Baba - all suggestions very welcome! Yes, I did see that and it looked very interesting but I struggled to find a UK supplier for the 11mm and then the responses above gave me the willies about the forces that might be exerted on the furling line when the sail is reefed. So with no source I have been able to find giving actual data I have been focussing primarily on strength. There is also Dunedin’s good point about the taper being out of sight under the deck so hard to monitor how it is behaving. But if I could find a UK supplier and some authoritative reassurance that 3200 daN is strong enough, I might yet give it a go. Maybe I’ll give Jimmy Green a call next week.

The taper is not your concern do lock stitch it to prevent cover creep), chafe is, and there is no substitute for monitoring. If it is hidden, unfurl slowly while someone watches the drum.

 

[differentroads]

Hmmm… stretching your improbable but not impossible scenario to 35kts gives me 1500kg+ sheet load, which without knowing what portion of that would be transferred to the furling line would take decored 10mm braid into at least squeaky bum territory.

Shouldn’t happen but has when we got mugged from behind by a rapid increase in wind strength from 20kts to 35-40kts running west in Malaga bay - autohelm couldn’t cope, I couldn’t leave the wheel for a second, and the sea got up so quickly and so steep that I dare not turn into it to loose sail so had a buttock clenching hour running for shelter at the very edge of control at speeds that made a mockery of hull speed calculations. Rookie mistake, but I fear I still have plenty of those in me!...

...Shouldn’t happen but has when we got mugged from behind by a rapid increase in wind strength from 20kts to 35-40kts running west in Malaga bay - autohelm couldn’t cope, I couldn’t leave the wheel for a second, and the sea got up so quickly and so steep that I dare not turn into it to loose sail so had a buttock clenching hour running for shelter at the very edge of control at speeds that made a mockery of hull speed calculations. Rookie mistake, but I fear I still have plenty of those in me!
! ...

Interesting. I'm just down the road in Estepona and can identify with how the wind gets accelerated around here.

...Shouldn’t happen but has when we got mugged from behind by a rapid increase in wind strength from 20kts to 35-40kts running west in Malaga bay - autohelm couldn’t cope, I couldn’t leave the wheel for a second, and the sea got up so quickly and so steep that I dare not turn into it to loose sail so had a buttock clenching hour running for shelter at the very edge of control at speeds that made a mockery of hull speed calculations. Rookie mistake, but I fear I still have plenty of those in me!
...

I cross there twice a year on my way from Estepona to summer cruising grounds and back and, yeah, the wind can be fickle. This autumn we rounded Cabo de Gata under heavily reefed twin headsails in 25-30kn, by sunset had unreefed fully and before midnight the engine was on in a flat calm. Then in the bay of Malaga a thick fog poured down the mountains and we sailed on blind right to Estepona, where it lifted for just long enough to creep in.

I realise no that I've got to rethink my own new furling line for two x 28sq m sails!

 

[laika]

But low stretch is a good argument in favor of Dyneema. Of course, that does NOT mean the line cannot be tapered, only that you would most likely do it a different way, by stripping the cover instead of the core.

This is exactly what Allspars in plymouth did for me, replacing the thicker and untapered braid on braid which, from a full drum fully out would need to be quite loosely furled if I wasn't going to run out of line before it was furled. It's been a hugely beneficial change and no worries about line strength.

 

[stranded]

Yeah - we’d just sailed from Portugal and it was a salutary ‘welcome to the med’ lesson, after which I think we did more motoring than sailing.

The lack of data on furling line loads is a bit frustrating - it means I will probably go much stronger than needed, but better that…

 

[differentroads]

Yeah - we’d just sailed from Portugal and it was a salutary

Yeah - we’d just sailed from Portugal and it was a salutary ‘welcome to the med’ lesson, after which I think we did more motoring than sailing.

The lack of data on furling line loads is a bit frustrating - it means I will probably go much stronger than needed, but better that…

Fair point. Since I'm about to replace my own 10mm braid on braid furling line and want to take out some of the bulk in the drum I had a bit more of a think about dyneema core and braid versus braid on braid. Since we don't know the maximum likely load in the furling line I decided to work backwards from the line.

A half decent 10mm braid-on-braid line has a breaking strain of around 2600kg. Divide that by three to get a reasonable working load limit. Then halve it again when we take out the core (the catalogue I'm looking at states that specifically.) So 433kg working load limit which is nearly half a metric ton, or 68 stone in old money. I'm pretty sure I've not had the equivalent of pulling five hefty blokes on my furling line, even when I've left it very late to reef. So I'm confident that 10mm braid on braid with the core removed is up to the job. And 30% cheaper than 10mm braid with a dyneema core.

Alternatively, I can buy a 6mm dyneema braid over dyneema core line that has nearly the same breaking strain and stick the 10mm or 8mm cover from an old line over it where I have to handle it. That'd cost me half the price of the 10mm braid over dyneema core though the thought of looking at a 6mm furling line when the wind is 30kn from behind and I hadn't noticed it getting so strong gives me the collywobbles.

Perhaps someone could tell me if I'm about to make a stupid mistake with either of those options. The price difference between them and 10mm braid over dyneema is about 40€ in my case, so not too awful given the importance of the line. But given the dirt and wear that my current line has picked up, I'm not altogether sure about the durability of a stretch of dyneema alone.

 

[JFowler]

For a Selden Furlex the furling line is fixed through the drum with an overhand knot. Replacing the 10mm D/B Polyester with say 5mm S/B Dyneema what knot should I use?

 

[LadyInBed]

For a Selden Furlex the furling line is fixed through the drum with an overhand knot. Replacing the 10mm D/B Polyester with say 5mm S/B Dyneema what knot should I use?

A Plastic or better Nylon Ball Tie like these Accessories Plastic Ball Ties To Assemble With Bungee Cord Elastic
with a suitable dyneema stopper knot.