Making in mast reefing simpler?

Seajet said:
Tranona,

for a start I have plenty of experience using roller reefing headsails, I think you'll find the principle similar to mainsails except the latter leave the user even more badly placed if and when they fail.

It doesn't take a genius to work out the drawbacks with in-mast furling, and the advantages of slab reefing; if it's lost on you I'm not bothering to repeat myself, have another read.

As for boats at shows, lots of people stupidly try to take the easy way out in all sorts of things in life, that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Nostradamus asked about marking lines, I contributed a few ideas.

Later on there was what I felt a rather tongue in cheek ribbing about our relative systems which seemed to go fine until your size 12's descended; It's a shame you are so sensitive about the system you use that you feel it necessary to spray insults about...

I wasn't aware I required your permission to try to be helpful; Oh hang on, I don't...:rolleyes:
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Just remind me once again how many thousands of miles you have sailed a fair sized cruising boat with in mast furling?

How dare you be so arrogant to call other people stupid because they make different decisions from you?

You really are stuck in some kind of time warp where the world has passed you by. All your imaginary images of the "failings" are simply not borne out in practice. See silver-fox for yet another informed view that is at odds with your imagination.

Just look at the contributions here. Most people that choose in mast furling do so with the experience of slab reefing, and are making a deliberate decision to go that way. Sure they don't need any advice from somebody who by their own admission has a background in "high performance dinghies and small sailing cruisers" - when they own and successfully run 35'+ cruisers. Not everybody makes the same choice, but nobody is forced to choose one or the other - they are quite capable of making up their own minds which they prefer.

Of course you don't need my (or anybody else's) permission. Just try to open your eyes a bit and see that there is a big wide world out there that does not conform to your views.
 
Silver Fox,
Thank you for you advice, I will try re greasing during the winter lay up. I will also clean and silicon spray the track tomorrow.
It may be that I have a large main (45ft boat) that sometimes makes it a pain, especially when the wind is up.
All my pevious experience has mainly been with slab reefing but I must prefer the in mast system
Sometimes particually when I am reefing alone having the marks on the mast around where it would be a good balance on the helm would help to ty and get in about right first time.
 
To the in-mast fans; roller failings are by no means hypothetical, I have been on 3 boats belonging to other people where the headsail system has jammed, naturally when most inconvenient.

It must be admitted that a conventional main jamming in its' track is rather unusual, but possible with things like more complex cars.

If I was on a slab reefed boat with the luff jammed in the mast and wishing to reduce sail, I'd slacken the clew outhaul way off and wrap the sail around the mast with the spare / spinnaker halliard.

That would result in a high windage version of in-mast reefing, with the weight of however much sail was hoisted up high instead of low as in slab...

Tranona, I certainly don't feel anyone has to conform to anything I think, but I am at liberty to express my feelings and concerns, even if they disagree with people who have invested faith and money in such systems.
 
I would have thought the easiest way to mark has already been largely suggested. For a reefing point when genoa is fully out, mark reefing position on boom with say black tape when yacht is nicely balenced. When genoa is on first reef mark, use say red tape on boom to mark mainsail position when boat is balenced etc. When satisfied replace tape with appropriate paint marks.
I use "sailkote" to spray on the car for my boom for the outhaul. Trouble is it doesn't last very long.
Slight thread drift: have had traditional reefing, boom roller reefing, in mast furling and slab reeefing with lines to the mast but by far the hardest reefing I have experienced (on someone else's boat) was slab reefing with fully battened main with reefing lines led back to the cockpit. The friction, even with expensive cars, was incredible. I dread to think how we would have coped in a full gale. It was a good job the yacht had a huge winch on the coachroof by the hatch for maximum grunt!
 
I have not found any need to mark the boom. The vertical battens make sufficiently good reference points. Such as, all out, top batten just showing, half way to 2nd batten etc.

We have a 30+ yr old Proctor system which still works very well. I do have one problem with it however. The kicker is a rigid strut, as originally fitted and referred to in the manual. However I have a feeling that an adjustable rod kicker would allow better adjustment of sail shape.

Slight thread drift, but what do other in-mast experts think?
 
Nos don't worry about them lining their drinks up. By the time they have flaked the main properly, taken their halyard off and eventually got the sail bag zipped up, if the zip hasn't rotted with the uv,you will beat them to it. And then in the morning while they are repeating the process in reverse you will be long gone with your main up again. Lol
 
dougg said:
Nos don't worry about them lining their drinks up. By the time they have flaked the main properly, taken their halyard off and eventually got the sail bag zipped up, if the zip hasn't rotted with the uv,you will beat them to it. And then in the morning while they are repeating the process in reverse you will be long gone with your main up again. Lol
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Looks like me and you in the bar then Dougg. :D:D
 
I have reefing marks on the mainsail, same as the jib. It does make it a lot easier to have reference points, and marks on the boom would work just as well.

I was in the seajet camp before buying this boat, but it is really growing on me. The biggest drawback is the sailing performance vs a fully battened main, but for the downwind sailing I do it's so much easier to be able to reef as much or as little as you want with a couple of turns. I dont see the likelihood of it jamming to be any more than that of the jib.
 
Furling Main

Nostrodamus said:
Mike, it seems as we have the same Seldan system and I also have the vertical battens which I do like a lot. I did have a problem with the continual line but that was because the splice got bunched causing it to stick going through the jammers. I now have a longer line that is not spliced and it works well. I do have a ratchet on the furling drum at the mast but tend to leave it in the one position. It may be that ou main is quiet big but as I say it is often easier to haul it in with the wind behind and that way the genoa is not flying all over as well. It also saves the out hall trying to give me a good whipping if I am taking it in single handed.
Mike, as a percentage of your boom do you know where the marks are?


Pete 7.. I will try cleaning the track and see if it makes a difference. The silicon spray I am referring to can be sprayed on lines and cloth as well as i does not leave a sticky residue but certainly helps things slide. I think in winter I need to get the ca out ans give it a good clean. The in mast furling system was all checked and fully serviced two years ago.
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I don't have marks on the boom but I reef depending on how much wind there is and measure the amount by just getting either a short baton or a long one just inside the mast, I usually put the Genoa away first assuming the wind is behind the beam and then head up let the boom fly and release the out-haul and furl it, as for the ratchet on the winch at the mast, I have found that if it is not in the locked position when reefed and hard on the wind it can and has crept out and you end up with a very full main rather larger than you really want.
If you are interested I will PM you some pictures of my arrangement.
Regards Mike
 
Nostrodamus

As you know, Oystermist in Povoa, I have a similar set up to you. I use the makers mark (Dolphin) on the main sail this, when just rolled into the mast,, matches two reefs on the genoa.

That said I have a new mainsail from Kemps which I will put on the boat tomorrow. I don't know if it has a logo in the same place so will have to work out a new system.

So if you don't have any existing marks on the sai,l rather than mark the boom why not sew a small coloured tab on the foot of the main to match the genoa marks.
 
Maxi_10 said:
Nostrodamus

As you know, Oystermist in Povoa, I have a similar set up to you. I use the makers mark (Dolphin) on the main sail this, when just rolled into the mast,, matches two reefs on the genoa.

That said I have a new mainsail from Kemps which I will put on the boat tomorrow. I don't know if it has a logo in the same place so will have to work out a new system.

So if you don't have any existing marks on the sai,l rather than mark the boom why not sew a small coloured tab on the foot of the main to match the genoa marks.
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We have a newish main and genoa made by Sanders. The genoa is marked with reefing points but we changed th original spec from 150% to 140% with a higher foot. 150 was just to big to see past.
This is one of the reasons I ask but I think the best way is to just go out, reef the Genoa and see roughly where the balance point is and mark the boom with electricians tape. Then it gives this idiot some basic reference point and helpsthe rag tag crew as well.
Are you still there.. the heat turns up a little further south :rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
Tranona,

just having got back to my pc ( after a day playing with boats, amazingly ) I have re-read some recent posts here.

I realise I phrased things badly when getting a little wound up, and it looked like I was calling operators of in-mast reefing 'stupid'.

That's not what I intended and I apologise for that.

What I was trying to say is that going for the easy option - in anything - rarely pays.

Which is not the same as what the first person to ever take me sailing taught me " the best sailor in the world is the laziest " meaning plan ahead so as to avoid situations requiring a sweat.

Personally I will never be convinced re in-mast ( or to a lesser extent in-boom either ) and if you ever catch me owning such kit please feel free to publish pics !

However I did not mean to insult anyone, sorry.

Andy

- In case anyone's wondering, no I have not been leant on to say this !
 
To answer the OP: What you propose might help, I have had in mast reefing for years and although I wondered about it I have never felt the need to mark neither Genoa nor Mainsail clew/car position, so I do not have such markings because the positions are infinite.

When I reef, I just estimate the portion of sail to take in and often I go a little beyond what I have estimated, if then it it is too much I haul it out gradually until I get a balance, but I hardly ever need to do so because then I realize that I am at hull speed anyway and I can maintain a better speed with the boat more upright ...
 
haydude said:
To answer the OP: What you propose might help, I have had in mast reefing for years and although I wondered about it I have never felt the need to mark neither Genoa nor Mainsail clew/car position, so I do not have such markings because the positions are infinite.

When I reef, I just estimate the portion of sail to take in and often I go a little beyond what I have estimated, if then it it is too much I haul it out gradually until I get a balance, but I hardly ever need to do so because then I realize that I am at hull speed anyway and I can maintain a better speed with the boat more upright ...
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That's what I was trying to say but better put:)

... and what's more I reef more often because its so easy - unlike doing a jig at the mast!!
 
Seajet said:
Tranona,

just having got back to my pc ( after a day playing with boats, amazingly ) I have re-read some recent posts here.

I realise I phrased things badly when getting a little wound up, and it looked like I was calling operators of in-mast reefing 'stupid'.

That's not what I intended and I apologise for that.

What I was trying to say is that going for the easy option - in anything - rarely pays.

Which is not the same as what the first person to ever take me sailing taught me " the best sailor in the world is the laziest " meaning plan ahead so as to avoid situations requiring a sweat.

Personally I will never be convinced re in-mast ( or to a lesser extent in-boom either ) and if you ever catch me owning such kit please feel free to publish pics !

However I did not mean to insult anyone, sorry.

Andy

- In case anyone's wondering, no I have not been leant on to say this !
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That is definitely a large portion of humble pie!
 
dougg said:
Nos don't worry about them lining their drinks up. By the time they have flaked the main properly, .......
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A gentleman does not race... but you will be drinking after us....

The main (fully battoned) simply drops into the lazyjacks and we pull the on cover from end to end... However, I do suspect that having a proper boat may be the real reason as we are simply very fast...
 
Tomahawk said:
Not all boats without a keel are Bavarias !!
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Tomahawk,
You are spending far too much time on this forum rather than being on the Tescos site ordering various barrels of beer with which to provision your boat. (Even amounts for each hull to balance it out)
I also hope your keyboard is blue with anti foul which you no doubt have everywhere.
 
It may, or more probably may not, interest the readership to know that I was sailing 40 and 50 years ago. At that time of course, I did not have roller reefing on main or genny but I carried 8 sails on a 30ft boat.

I have now had my Moody 42 for 17 years and have roller reefing on both main and genny. I have reached a stage in life, when I no longer wish to be rolling around the foredeck fighting with a homicidal gennoa, just because I have left reefing a little late.

Yes I used to race and I used to be fascinated in getting the perfect shape to my sails. I now find that my ols Moody, at about 15 tons, dosn't mind too much. I have had my side rails under, about twice I think but I have done about 10,000 miles and I do not feel that I am either stupid or that I need to be told how to sail.

I might have a little knowledge, which can be passed on to those who are interested. If they are not then fine. They can laugh at me and or ignore me. Neither of which will alter my life one iota.

I have never marked my reefing gear in any way. If the boat wants less sail, then I take a little more in. If she is not pressed, then I give her a little more sail. I look at the sails and I feel the wind. This, to me, is more important than marks to tell me - what exactly?

Perhaps my reefing gear is due to jam soon. After all these years and miles, perhaps over due. I really don't know. I have never seen any likelihood of it and, at the end of the day, I have known slides jam on tracks and if I am in extremis, I could always put a knife through ther sail. Lives are much more valuable than sails.

I am reminded of a long poem from the sailing club's comment book, over 55 years ago. I can not remember it all but it finished up talking about those venerable members ..... '...whose sailing is done o'er cups of tea, upon the club house balconee'.
 
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