MAIB Report Red Falcon and Phoenix collision

[prv]

Errrrr .... read it again

If you're making a valid point then I genuinely fail to see it. What's the difference in substantive meaning between

"An AIS transceiver would have enabled [...] the display of Red Falcon as an AIS target on board Phoenix."

and

"A cheap, easily fitted, AIS receiver on the Phoenix would, almost certainly, have avoided the situation entirely."

?

Pete

 

[Angele]

I did smile, though, at their suggestion that having a VHF on board would have helped. Clearly it's weird for a 30-foot motorboat not to have one, but someone who is oblivious to the position of the IoW ferries and doesn't think to look at what's coming up or down the channel before he joins it, is quite unlikely to be listening to ch12 and, even if he were, is highly unlikely to then recognise the significance of "Red Falcon, Hook buoy out".

Pete

Totally agree. I saw the comment:

Similarly, a VHF radio would have alerted the motor cruiser’s owner to the ferry approaching from the north when its master reported to VTS on passing the Hook buoy at 1627.

... and wondered just how many leisure boats are constantly monitoring Ch12. I don't. I will occasionally turn over to Ch12 when VTS announces on Ch16 that they are about make a broadcast, but the rest of the time in am only on Ch16.

And the suggestion that, even if the skipper of Phoenix had heard the broadcast, that he would have realised he was in imminent danger was probably a little optimistic.

Edit: p.s. I know that small craft are "strongly advised" to monitor Ch12 (or Ch11 for Pompey), but I wonder how many genuinely do. I rely on looking around me and not straying into the main channel without first checking it is clear.

 

[dom]

I'm broadly with you that AIS might have helped - and on a good modern setup you can set the alarm parameters to reduce false alerts. But I am a little amused at the idea - even if it's true - that a tiny arrow on a screen would be more noticeable than a thousand tonnes of red-painted steel covered in wailing car alarms.

Pete

Though as we all know, AIS tends to be a sea of flashing warnings around there mid-summer. In fact the entire Hamble River is just a giant flashing mass. I sometimes turn my AIS overlay off to see the bloomin chart and hopefully avoid hitting the cricket pitch in the middle - which one mostly can't see :ambivalence:

Though I 100% agree with you that this was more Mk1 eyeball territory than Mk10 gizzmo

 

[RichardS]

If you're making a valid point then I genuinely fail to see it. What's the difference in substantive meaning between

"An AIS transceiver would have enabled [...] the display of Red Falcon as an AIS target on board Phoenix."

and

"A cheap, easily fitted, AIS receiver on the Phoenix would, almost certainly, have avoided the situation entirely."

?

Pete

It's a small boat with very limited equipment so the skipper is highly unlikely to consider fitting an AIS transceiver because of the cost and complexity factors. However, an AIS receiver would probably be a much more attractive proposition, potentially cheaper than a decent VHF radio and, in this situation, much more relevant.

I think that the MAIB have missed an opportunity to highlight a cheap piece of equipment which can save lives.

Richard

 

[prv]

wondered just how many leisure boats are constantly monitoring Ch12.

I do when I'm in Southampton Water and the central Solent area at the bottom of it. But even if you are monitoring VTS, you'd need to devote a certain amount of your mental capacity to maintaining a picture of what's where based on the intermittent calls, and I generally don't do that. Mostly I just pick up on large vessels breaking away or passing Dock Head, so I know they're going to be arriving where we are soon, and occasionally I'll notice that an incoming ship is going to a low-numbered berth or the Empress Dock and that clues me in that they'll be turning into the Itchen where I might be raising sails on the way out or perhaps sailing slowly home under jib alone.

Pete

 

[prv]

It's a small boat with very limited equipment so the skipper is highly unlikely to consider fitting an AIS transceiver because of the cost and complexity factors. However, an AIS receiver would probably be a much more attractive proposition, potentially cheaper than a decent VHF radio and, in this situation, much more relevant.

Ok, so your point is "receiver" vs "transceiver"?

I can't see that the distinction matters much in the context of the report, but whatever.

Pete

 

[prv]

Though as we all know, AIS tends to be a sea of flashing warnings around there mid-summer. In fact the entire Hamble River is just a giant flashing mass.

Worth checking if your system can hide stationary targets?

Pete

 

[RichardS]

Ok, so your point is "receiver" vs "transceiver"?

I can't see that the distinction matters much in the context of the report, but whatever.

Pete

I think it does matter in the context of a boat which clearly has rather limited equipment.

Richard

 

[Angele]

I think it does matter in the context of a boat which clearly has rather limited equipment.

Richard

.... It wasn't just the equipment that was limited...

 

[Neeves]

Ignoring hindsight - would a 30' leisure vessel have an AIS on deck or down at the chart table.

I know where it is more useful, in this case, I just wonder what the reality is, or would be.

A cheaper option in this case, other then looking behind, would be a rear view mirror.

Jonathan

 

[bedouin]

You are rammed from behind in total defiance of ColRegs and you are 50% responsible? Seriously?

We were discussing whether a yachtie would draw any conclusions from this incident about whether the Phoenix skipper was incompetent. I certainly would not.

Basic seamanship and acting as the give way vessel, as required by ColRegs, from the Red Falcon would have avoided the collision. I'm upping the ante ..... Red Falcon now 85%, Phoenix 15%. :encouragement:

Richard

I might make it 49&

Neither skipper kept a good lookout but the Ferry had more excuse.

The ferry had very limited options for manoeuvre owing to all the small boats - especially the sailing boat on his port bow.

The correct behaviour for the motor boat was to give the ferry sufficient room to maneouvre - Rule 9 should apply. Local instructions from Southampton VTS stress that leisure boats should cross the channel quickly and at right angles

 

[RichardS]

I might make it 49&

Neither skipper kept a good lookout but the Ferry had more excuse.

The ferry had very limited options for manoeuvre owing to all the small boats - especially the sailing boat on his port bow.

The correct behaviour for the motor boat was to give the ferry sufficient room to maneouvre - Rule 9 should apply. Local instructions from Southampton VTS stress that leisure boats should cross the channel quickly and at right angles

Rule 9 applies to "Narrow Channels" and Elessar specifically states that this is not a narrow channel so Rule 9 should not, and does not, apply. However, even where Rule 9 does apply, it says that the rule does not relieve the overtaking vessel of her obligation under Rule 13.

Perhaps have another go at the percentages.

 

[Angele]

Rule 9 applies to "Narrow Channels" and Elessar specifically states that this is not a narrow channel so Rule 9 should not, and does not, apply. However, even where Rule 9 does apply, it says that the rule does not relieve the overtaking vessel of her obligation under Rule 13.

Perhaps have another go at the percentages.

Referring to any of the COLREGS rules apart from Rule 5 (and possibly 6) is pretty pointless if neither has seen the other.

 

[bedouin]

Rule 9 applies to "Narrow Channels" and Elessar specifically states that this is not a narrow channel so Rule 9 should not, and does not, apply. However, even where Rule 9 does apply, it says that the rule does not relieve the overtaking vessel of her obligation under Rule 13.

Perhaps have another go at the percentages.

a) IMHO it is certainly a narrow channel
b) The ABP guidance would apply either way.

I am prepared to go up to 60% Phoenix but that is my limit

 

[chrishscorp]

Both vessels should have maintained a good and proper look out, both should have taken avoiding action, though Red Falcon had a motoring ? sailboat on her port hand side so ability to manoevre could be limited

Phoenix set a course into the precautionary area unaware of her surroundings. Red Falcon is only 93M long some 4,100 tons so not given the 1,000M exclusion box that larger vessels are afforded. However those ferries criss cross constantly not too mention cruise liners, tankers, container ships, coasters and hydrofoil ferries @35+knots. Failure to keep a good look out in that area could mean you are hit by any of the above.

Thankfully everyone got to go home

 

[dom]

Referring to any of the COLREGS rules apart from Rule 5 (and possibly 6) is pretty pointless if neither has seen the other.

Hard to argue with that

 

[CLB]

Ignoring hindsight - would a 30' leisure vessel have an AIS on deck or down at the chart table.

I know where it is more useful, in this case, I just wonder what the reality is, or would be.

A cheaper option in this case, other then looking behind, would be a rear view mirror.

Jonathan

In the case of a motorboat like the one involved, there would be no chart table down below. Pretty much all MoBos would have AIS displayed on their main MFD which would be at the helm.

 

[Skylark]

The MoBo owner had 17 years experience sailing Lake Solent; he did not hold any marine or boating qualifications and had no knowledge of local regulations and guidance. He also had 2 pints of beer with his pub lunch.

He left Hamble, crossed the channel towards the west, then was crossing it again at a very acute angle heading south(ish) towards Cowes. Then bang. (Figure 8).

I'm sure the Daily Mail will love this one. Mandatory qualifications and mandatory drink driving laws.

 

[dom]

Worth checking if your system can hide stationary targets?

Pete

Great idea, will check Lighthouse 3 manual

 

[Elessar]

Ignoring hindsight - would a 30' leisure vessel have an AIS on deck or down at the chart table.

I know where it is more useful, in this case, I just wonder what the reality is, or would be.

A cheaper option in this case, other then looking behind, would be a rear view mirror.

Jonathan

No motor cruiser would have it at the chart table. Why yachts ever do mystifys me.