BruceK
Well-Known Member
Naw you are a true gentleman. With occasional flights of fancy. But a gent nonetheless. I still think the scooter for Maccy runs is an absolute hoot!
MAIB Report from the Cannes (Vision/Minx) accident last year
- Thread starter PalmaTarga
- Start date
Bouba
Well-Known Member
Thank you ?? what’s a ‘Maccy’?
BruceK
Well-Known Member
McDonalds you old fart. Get with the times. Dont you have grandkids to educate you?
Bouba
Well-Known Member
I must be having a senior moment ?’coz I’ve been dreaming of a Big Mac all day!???
petem
Well-Known Member
Im really not sure what the debate is here.
The report clearly states that the Vision captained by a man with cannabis in his blood collided with the Minx while attempting a dangerous manoeuvre while speeding at 33knts resulting in the death of a trained and fully licensed crew member.
The Captain of the Vision is to blame and no one else.
I note the following from the MAIB report....
"As professional seafarers in a commercial environment, motor yacht skippers have a duty of care to the guests, the vessel, their crew and other water users. In the motor yacht industry, owners and charterers are on vacation; they will want to relax, be pampered and party, but they might also want to be entertained, perhaps even thrilled, by the experience of being at sea for their leisure. In this environment, motor yacht skippers and crew must stay in control of the yacht and not allow themselves to get caught up in the party atmosphere. However challenging it may be, the presence of powerful owners or demanding charterers must not have any influence on safe operations and the professional conduct of the crew. Vision’s skipper had swallow-dived into the sea during the party and then driven the yacht at over six times the local speed limit when attempting to provide an opportunity for the guests to wave to their friends on departure from the anchorage. These were actions that illustrate that Vision’s skipper had not placed the safety of the yacht and its occupants as his absolute top priority. However, the skipper’s behaviour, in attempting the pass, was heavily influenced by the charterer’s wish to provide a good opportunity for his guests to wave goodbye to their friends."
Ultimately, the skipper was to blame. But I suspect that the inclusion of the sentence that I've highlighted suggests that there is a suspicion that the skipper was under some pressure from the owner or charterer (his employer) to perform the fatal manoeuvre.
Whose idea was it? Was it the skippers alone? Was it the owners with the skipper advising against it and pressure being applied by the owner? Was there a 'dare' element?
Portofino
Well-Known Member
I don’t see it as blame game ,I see it as lessons to be learnt .Some clear to all , some more subjective .
Its not entirely a black and white cut and dry thing this big boat crew thing .
It’s a gradation a scale of tiny increments.
At one end you have the likes of the late Sir Donald Gosling hiring an ex nuclear sub commander to skipper Leander and @ the other you have agency’s or brokers in the SoF supplying a mate they know to take you to the Monaco GP in exchange for cash .
In the middle I know of a few “ faux” charter set ups whereby the guardians ( the guys looking after it ) helm it .Owners actually pay there own money into the boats charter account , but they are the only paying customers ever .It’s a VAT angle .
Question are theses guys commercial ticketed ? Or indeed exactly what quallys do they have .
Then I know of a another Pershing actually in Monaco with a crew of three , the skipper - stewie are in a relationship sharing the same cabin and there’s a deckie another female as well who doubles up as another stewie when it’s busy .
So i am introducing a relationship angle and sexual tensions into the potential of fuzzy decision making @ 70 tonnes bombing along @ 40 knots. A lot of stuff needs safety checking properly so no favouritism needed .
Then the dope angle in this case .I would do random drug testing and have it quite explicitly written up in the contracts, even ask at interview ( no notice btw ) if they refuse bin the application.
The paper work side has to be squeaky clean in terms of tickets and the right ones for charter .
Appreciate but like this ( by the sounds of it ? ) as owners move up the requirements changes but surly most brokers are aware and offer necessary advice .Ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law .
When I have been on wet demos off Monaco on all sorts of Ferretti group boats the brokers / sales team do discuss the crew + charter requirements .Offer assistance setting up etc .Plus plenty of agents about .
I note the vision skipper has since qualified himself for commercial charter , bit late .
Its interesting as it the enforcement by officials in the SoF seems patchy.Maybe this “ Vision “ one slipped through the net ?
I had a mate bordered at the jetty and given 20 days to supply the whole paperwork inc charter bank statements, accounts + VAT trail and skippers quallys , the fire extinguisher service stuff etc .Or end up ( beneficial owner he was ) in front of a judge .
He did it at much stress , as his accountant was on hols in August too !!
He made the deadline.French accepted the paperwork btw
.A serial boat owner many new eventually he bought the last one privately, still employs a skipper though to helm it on a day basis live out .
Anyhow PeteM s and the reports point , yep the relationship between the dope taking under qualified skipper and by the sounds of it the beneficial owner of the “ faux “ charter boat was flawed inho .
A lot will pull bits and pieces from this and hopefully amend there circumstances, I would like to think ?
Its not entirely a black and white cut and dry thing this big boat crew thing .
It’s a gradation a scale of tiny increments.
At one end you have the likes of the late Sir Donald Gosling hiring an ex nuclear sub commander to skipper Leander and @ the other you have agency’s or brokers in the SoF supplying a mate they know to take you to the Monaco GP in exchange for cash .
In the middle I know of a few “ faux” charter set ups whereby the guardians ( the guys looking after it ) helm it .Owners actually pay there own money into the boats charter account , but they are the only paying customers ever .It’s a VAT angle .
Question are theses guys commercial ticketed ? Or indeed exactly what quallys do they have .
Then I know of a another Pershing actually in Monaco with a crew of three , the skipper - stewie are in a relationship sharing the same cabin and there’s a deckie another female as well who doubles up as another stewie when it’s busy .
So i am introducing a relationship angle and sexual tensions into the potential of fuzzy decision making @ 70 tonnes bombing along @ 40 knots. A lot of stuff needs safety checking properly so no favouritism needed .
Then the dope angle in this case .I would do random drug testing and have it quite explicitly written up in the contracts, even ask at interview ( no notice btw ) if they refuse bin the application.
The paper work side has to be squeaky clean in terms of tickets and the right ones for charter .
Appreciate but like this ( by the sounds of it ? ) as owners move up the requirements changes but surly most brokers are aware and offer necessary advice .Ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law .
When I have been on wet demos off Monaco on all sorts of Ferretti group boats the brokers / sales team do discuss the crew + charter requirements .Offer assistance setting up etc .Plus plenty of agents about .
I note the vision skipper has since qualified himself for commercial charter , bit late .
Its interesting as it the enforcement by officials in the SoF seems patchy.Maybe this “ Vision “ one slipped through the net ?
I had a mate bordered at the jetty and given 20 days to supply the whole paperwork inc charter bank statements, accounts + VAT trail and skippers quallys , the fire extinguisher service stuff etc .Or end up ( beneficial owner he was ) in front of a judge .
He did it at much stress , as his accountant was on hols in August too !!
He made the deadline.French accepted the paperwork btw
.A serial boat owner many new eventually he bought the last one privately, still employs a skipper though to helm it on a day basis live out .
Anyhow PeteM s and the reports point , yep the relationship between the dope taking under qualified skipper and by the sounds of it the beneficial owner of the “ faux “ charter boat was flawed inho .
A lot will pull bits and pieces from this and hopefully amend there circumstances, I would like to think ?
BruceK
Well-Known Member
I dont quite get all that Porto. Skipper is whoever is in charge of the boat be it whatever it is and where ever it is. Commercial qualifications are not a mitigating factor in any way. When you, I or anyone hold responsibility for the lives of others in our hands there is no varying degree of onus. As I said earlier qualifications do not a skipper make.
Portofino
Well-Known Member
You mean like this chap ....The captain of the Italian cruise ship Costa Concordia has been found guilty of manslaughter and sentenced to 16 years in prison. Captain Francesco Schettino.
Allegedly giving a pretty crew member a good seeing to at the time of the grounding .
Thats what iam saying there are gradation of movements away from an ex RN nuclear sub commander skippering your boat in terms of unnecessary distractions, - down to accident inducing levels .
Charter boats rules vary but in the SoF I understand the skipper needs the correct quallys and is accountable.
BruceK
Well-Known Member
And I'm saying that you, me and everyone else, even with just a PB2, ICC , is equally responsible when in charge of a boat. Proffesionalism or not there is a duty of care and accountability for one's actions.
Portofino
Well-Known Member
Yes not disagreeing, just showing how that ethos can be unravelled .....quite easily.
Knowing what we or I know folks might be able to minimise themselves ending up in a tragic situation .
Nobody wakes up and says “ hey guys let’s go out and incur loss of life on a boat “ or ship .
The report is quite clear on the background. Not textbook on many levels .
BruceK
Well-Known Member
Agreed which once again leads me back to qualifications dont make a skipper. You'd have to be a very confident and self assured man to be able to stand up to an oligarch and say no AND be respected for your decision. Show me the RYA course that does that. And I dont mean that in mitigation either. If he took the job and knew he could not that was the start of his failings.
jointventureII
Well-Known Member
This is a fair point. I know of one skipper that was given the sack on the spot for refusing to take the boat out in very very rough weather. Russian owner.
Another where the half the crew walked off when the captain caved in to pressure to take the boat out for a sea trial for a potential client who'd travelled half way around the world to see the boat. They went out anyway (without a mate, engineer, lead deckhand into 4-5 metre waves). We were all watching in disbelief as they cast off into 40 knot gusts across the marina, headed down the channel from Marina Aeroporto and out into the open sea. After 20 mins, they'd made less than 50 yards before trying to turn back.
Heavy pressure from owners is more common than it should be
Bouba
Well-Known Member
Perhaps it’s hard to convince someone who’s just arrived from Russia that a force 5 is bad weather