Lydney

[TwoHooter]

Previous threads were some time back so new one, more in hope than expectation.
From the Environment Agency:
'Further works are planned in the coming weeks including the removal and repair of the outer sea gates, which will be followed by the reinstatement of the historic bypass sluice. '
Historic wall at Lydney Harbour revealed as part of restoration work
I expect most of us on here will say we'll believe it when we see it, but maybe, just possibly...... I notice they say nothing about dredging. My picture was taken 14 May 2022.
The pool has been tidied up a bit, but if the gates do work again they'll need to think about having a harbourmaster on site to manage the place properly. The revenue from berthing charges ought to be enough to cover that, and it's so badly needed.

 

[Allan]

Such a sad sight. They often refer to it as 'historic' Lydney harbour, but don't treat it as such. Maybe it should be listed? Unfortunately, I don't see the mooring fees covering the cost of a permanent harbour master.
Allan

 

[Birdseye]

wrent both lydney and bullo pill built with a sluicing system to allow flushing of the mud? bullo certainly was and so didnt need dredging if flushed regularly.

 

[LittleSister]

wrent both lydney and bullo pill built with a sluicing system to allow flushing of the mud? bullo certainly was and so didnt need dredging if flushed regularly.

Presumably that would require the outer gates to be operable? Otherwise (as is apparently the case now) you'd get more mud/silt being brought in than being taken out.

Such a sad sight. They often refer to it as 'historic' Lydney harbour, but don't treat it as such. Maybe it should be listed?

It is already both a Scheduled Ancient Monument and a grade II Listed Building.

I don't know how accurate or up to date it is, but the Historic England website says 'The Environment Agency has advertised the site and selected a preferred bidder to take over the ownership of the site. The final details of this sale are still being resolved.'
Lydney Docks and Harbour, Naas Lane, Lydney - Forest of Dean | Historic England

 

[TwoHooter]

Unfortunately, I don't see the mooring fees covering the cost of a permanent harbour master.
Allan

I reckon 400m of berthing in the inner basin including a mid-basin pontoon with mooring one side only, and maybe 100m permanent in the outer basin, probably useful to larger boats. Say an average £ 250/meter p.a.. That's a competitive price because Lydney is probably never going to have a barricade round it and 24 hour staffing. On the other hand it's very convenient for a fair number of owners.
£250 x 500 = £125,000 p.a. less VAT = £104,000 net.
Plus visitor berthing charges.
Electricity charged at cost plus a service charge to cover maintenance and depreciation of the kit.
It would be tight, and it would take time to get there, but I think it could be done and without a harbourmaster the harbour will NEVER work even if they do fix the gates.
If it were me I would allow a few modern purpose-built houseboats (provided sewage disposal could be dealt with) because that's very stable income and more eyes watching what's going on. Whenever we move to a new marina I always try and make friends with the live-aboards, they can be quicker than the marina itself to let you know if anything's wrong.

 

[Allan]

I reckon 400m of berthing in the inner basin including a mid-basin pontoon with mooring one side only, and maybe 100m permanent in the outer basin, probably useful to larger boats. Say an average £ 250/meter p.a.. That's a competitive price because Lydney is probably never going to have a barricade round it and 24 hour staffing. On the other hand it's very convenient for a fair number of owners.
£250 x 500 = £125,000 p.a. less VAT = £104,000 net.
Plus visitor berthing charges.
Electricity charged at cost plus a service charge to cover maintenance and depreciation of the kit.
It would be tight, and it would take time to get there, but I think it could be done and without a harbourmaster the harbour will NEVER work even if they do fix the gates.
If it were me I would allow a few modern purpose-built houseboats (provided sewage disposal could be dealt with) because that's very stable income and more eyes watching what's going on. Whenever we move to a new marina I always try and make friends with the live-aboards, they can be quicker than the marina itself to let you know if anything's wrong.

I think Lydney could add some of the small holiday barges like they have in the marina at Milford Haven.
I think your figure of £250/m is a little optimistic. Cardiff marina is only a little more than that. Cardiff yacht club is only about £80/m. They have almost 100% access.
I would really like to be wrong but I'm afraid I don't think it adds up. I also doubt the commitment of the EA to take a risk on the investment required.
Allan

 

[TwoHooter]

I suppose I'm influenced by the fact we are paying about £530/meter p.a. (Plymouth Sutton Harbour). I thought Lydney would be worth about half that.

If there isn't a harbourmaster the place will never work and that's al there is to it.

 

[Allan]

I suppose I'm influenced by the fact we are paying about £530/meter p.a. (Plymouth Sutton Harbour). I thought Lydney would be worth about half that.

If there isn't a harbourmaster the place will never work and that's al there is to it.

100% agree it needs someone to dedicate at least a portion of their time to the harbour. It also needs some commitment from someone with money. Whether that's the EA or an intelligent developer who understands the need for a centrepiece to a successful development.
Allan

 

[Kurrawong_Kid]

How about a Trust, worked by volunteers? Eg Queenborough Harbour Trust and the ATL? If there were permanent live aboard moorings perhaps there could be a rota of HM’s. Attendance could be limited to daylight hours. Just ideas!

 

[LittleSister]

Sorry to be a spoilsport, but how do these plans envisage raising the finance to buy the site in the first place?

 

[Allan]

Sorry to be a spoilsport, but how do these plans envisage raising the finance to buy the site in the first place?

Why would it need to be purchased? We own it. Built with tax revenue, neglected by a tax funded body. It must belong to the British people, who else? It is a community asset which should be available to the community.
Allan

 

[LittleSister]

Why would it need to be purchased? We own it. Built with tax revenue, neglected by a tax funded body. It must belong to the British people, who else? It is a community asset which should be available to the community.
Allan

I don't disagree in principle. In practice, however, it is apparently owned by the Environment Agency ('on our behalf'), and they will be under fierce pressure (also 'on our behalf') to off-load liabilities and raise as much cash as possible through its sale.

The website I linked to above said it had been advertised and EA had identified a preferred purchaser, but negotiations with them were ongoing. The local council appears to be involved in some way.

I guess (but don't know) that the preferred bidder has offered more for it than other potential purchasers, and the price offered is dependent on funding from the Council and/or other public bodies (e.g conservation), and/or flexibility/relaxation by them on planning controls that would otherwise inhibit whatever the prospective purchaser has in mind. Getting such things sufficiently nailed down is notoriously challenging, so don't hold your breath.

 

[Allan]

I don't disagree in principle. In practice, however, it is apparently owned by the Environment Agency ('on our behalf'), and they will be under fierce pressure (also 'on our behalf') to off-load liabilities and raise as much cash as possible through its sale.

The website I linked to above said it had been advertised and EA had identified a preferred purchaser, but negotiations with them were ongoing. The local council appears to be involved in some way.

I guess (but don't know) that the preferred bidder has offered more for it than other potential purchasers, and the price offered is dependent on funding from the Council and/or other public bodies (e.g conservation), and/or flexibility/relaxation by them on planning controls that would otherwise inhibit whatever the prospective purchaser has in mind. Getting such things sufficiently nailed down is notoriously challenging, so don't hold your breath.

The last I heard, a couple of years ago, was that the preferred bidder was the guy who owns the scrap yard up the road. From my fading memory, he said he wanted to use it to ship out scrap metal but wanted restrictions removed to allow the building of homes, " just in case". This based on rumours, pub talk and random speculation!
Allan

 

[Graham_Wright]

The last I heard, a couple of years ago, was that the preferred bidder was the guy who owns the scrap yard up the road. From my fading memory, he said he wanted to use it to ship out scrap metal but wanted restrictions removed to allow the building of homes, " just in case". This based on rumours, pub talk and random speculation!
Allan

He owns the industrial estate.

 

[Graham_Wright]

If there isn't a harbourmaster the place will never work and that's al there is to it.

Dave Penfold?

 

[Allan]

Dave Penfold?

A real Bristol channel hero!
Allan

 

[TwoHooter]

It's been over a year since the last post on this thread but there's been a lot going on.

EDIT - I have made changes to this post as new information has come in.

A bit of background. Lydney Harbour is owned by the Environment Agency ("EA"), who also own the harbour at Rye, but I don't think they have much experience as a harbour authority. I have a feeling they are learning the hard way just how many different interests have to be considered by a harbour authority. The harbour is a scheduled ancient monument - (Lydney Harbour, Lydney - 1002079 | Historic England) so Historic England also have an an important role.

The outer gates are due to be re-installed at the end of August. This sounds like good news but as I understand it there is some doubt about when the operating mechanism, the sluice, and other works will be done. Personally I wonder if the people running the project fully appreciate that once the gates are installed they must be brought into use otherwise they will silt up and become inoperative.

There is a Harbourmaster. Possibly there has always been one, in theory at least, but the new one definitely exists. I don't know when he was appointed. He is David Frodin, Telephone: 07920 837248 (normal office hours only). Email: hmlydney@environment-agency.gov.uk. He does attend, there have been boat movements including last Monday 7 August, also the workboat Bev D has been busy in the harbour. For those who are interested and use Facebook the Harbourmaster has a page here: Harbour Master Lydney I have learned that this page was set up by the EA so it has official status but it is the harbourmaster who runs it.

The Environment Agency's contractors have been busy doing a lot of work, including clearance of trees and other growth on the south side of the inner basin. Moorings on that side have been replaced by trot moorings to buoys down the centre of the harbour with access by tenders moored to a pontoon at the seaward end.

There is a notice giving warning that one of the hulks will be moved and disposed of if the owner doesn't claim it (!) but there are still numerous boats in the harbour which are in a disgraceful condition.

The atmosphere became a bit acrimonious recently because the EA decided without consultation to permanently close public access to the piers. The current fence and gates are said to be temporary but they have stated they will not allow public access to the piers from now on - after 200 years of public use! I am participating in a campaign to re-open public access - if you are interested there is a petition here: Sign the Petition At the time of posting we need 7 more signatures to reach the 2,500 milestone. From the boating perspective the argument in favour of retaining public access is that assistance is sometimes required from the land when boats depart or arrive. From the landward perspective the arguments that the piers should be reopened are many but possibly the principal argument is that access to the piers is vital to fully appreciate and enjoy the setting and is sufficiently long-established that it cannot be abolished by diktat.

A harbour advisory committee is probably going to be established, which hopefully will enable future decisions to be agreed rather than imposed.

 

[Allan]

Many thanks for your update. I hope the EA don't get away with closing off the piers. I remember, probably the my first visit, talking to an old bloke who told me he had stood there during the war. He saw German planes heading down the river and bombing Avonmouth. I'm sure that sort of history has been going on since the harbour was first built.
Allan

 

[Graham_Wright]

I called in on Friday and spent some time with one of the berth holders.
The last time I visited by boat, I bounced off the mud bank in #1 (on a falling tide!) on the way down to Barry. Bit of a scary lean until we inched off.
The much criticised fence doesn't look as bad as I feared, however, the pier is now inaccessible. I remember accompanying an elderly small friend down to the pier end in a blow and was worried she would be swept off.
I was appraised of the lack of local confidence in the EA harbour master. Shame Dave retired.
Upper basin mooring is now confined to mid channel and one power boat has sunk. The boat #1 is no longer there.