Look at the state of my interior woodwork - any ideas ?

2mm is quite thick in veneer terms. Yes use a scrapper, old varnish will usually flake off with a good sharp blade.
getting into the edges is a problem though and if you dont then when you varnish over it will show. Also beware that wher the wood has really faded due to sun/weather exposure you may get different shades showing.
Do consider paint it will brighten things up, is easier to do and maintain, just keep some of the old wood to retain the quality feel without the gloom.
 
Fascinating to read all the different approaches suggested,which seem to vary according to the time and skill available and the intended quality of the desired result.
And my 2 ha'porth.
Dont change horses in mid stream !-Westerly lacquer worked well because there is a very good teak veneer there that produced not a dark interior but a surprisingly light and very classy,tough finish,as brightwork goes.
And the lacquer is easy and economical to apply and will be forgiving in the sense that you are putting like on like.
So the question is how to safely remove that grey and produce an even surface ready for relacquering,
You should not need to use powertools if you use the right chemical stripper,use a scraper to lift away the softened goop,try wire wool in multigrade packs on the stubborn bits,neutralise with thinners frequently to avoid more staining,and then sand in line with the grain using sandpaper on a flat wooden block,I would apply 80 grit to the grye and then 120grit over all,wipe off and lacquer when the air and the wood are not damp,so ideal spring job.
If you run out of time or are not satisfied with your first area you can always paint the main bulkheads white as suggested.
Think of it as a rainy day project for an hour or two..
 
The woodwork in my Fisher wheel house was also very sundried and poor. I rubbed with sandpaper by hand anything that would come easily, and then, before varnishing, painted it all with boiled linseed oil. This restored the colour surprisingly well. It needed a few days to dry off properly and then I revarnished it. I must say that the result pleased me.
If sanding by hane with resaonably fine paper, you are not likely to do much damage to the veneer - hard work though!
 
But then...

As regards revarnishing....the target i think is to have a nice deep lustrous varnish finish, but the problem is that once the boat is assembled you have limited scope in which to achieve this. Or can you dismantle any of those pieces from the boat? If so, you could set up a paint shop at home (dryer and more controlled) but if not, well, damn.

First thing is to get the wood smooth. The cabinet scraper will have shown its worth here, an alternative is a stanley knife blade, but in any event you want to use gentle sandpaper to gradually gradually flatten the wood surface.

You have "control" of the wood surface at a given sanding roughness if a single "wipe" at say 10degrees off the line of the grain (never across it) can be immediately erased by a wipe directly with the grain. Try NOT to use orbital sanders from this stage, or indeed at all, really - great for rough work but not interior.

The game now is to attempt to get a sheen on the wood BEFORE any varnish. Do this by "turning the grain".

tip1 - identify the bits of the woodwork you will see in the light or which fall to hand most readily and get these right, practise on other areas. So frexample a decent painter will make sure the middle bit of a door or door jamb is just perfect. The top and bottom don't matter so much.

tip 2: get a temporary (big) light in the place whilst sanding and varnishing. The finish be apparently much better once returned to normal lighting levels.

Back to the wood, is time to turn the grain. You do this with a damp cloth: get an apparently nice smoothish sanded bit of wood and wipe it once with damp cloth. An hour later the surface will be rough as heck, cos little bits of end grain have warped with the moisture, and explains why amaterur varnish often looks manky.

Driving up the sanding numbers and repeatedly turning the grain will eventually get the wood to almost shine before varnishing. Eventually you should be well up into 1500+ and will want to use "warmed" sandpaper (i.e. rub two sheets together to knock them down before using) and spend a few days dampening, drying, resanding. Use a backing cork to avoided a rippled surface from fingers.

The varnishing will need about eight coats to get a deep shine, and the weather will probably be warmer by that time too. The name of the game is to try damp down the area, perhaps if you can construct a newspaper-covered shield that you can dampen and leave over the varnish overnight. It's a fact that with the very best painters you harly ever see them actually doing any painting and so it should be with you: sand a coat after at least two days (not the next day, it needs to harden) ecah time bringing the gloss of the varnish and removing any tiny particles. At the very last moment, before leaving the boat and closing the door, do the varnishing. You have to be quick, and not return to any "done" areas, but if you do cock it up a bit, the sanding back can catch it. Fast thin layers are what you want, not a gloopy finish with rounded gloopy corners. The sealing the room/area immediately and leaving overnight is important.

Other option is to bollx to all that - leave it OR if you really must, knock off the roughest bits with sandpaper, wipe dry, use a slightly darker stained varnish and a hand roller to avoid big brush marks. Don't roughly-revarnish big horizontal surfaces cos they'll look really godawful. Third bollx to it option is to use the bodgers dream - stained oil so it all goes sort of satinified or at least not raw wood, no drip marks or brushmarks, but test a small bit to see if it's ok first. Fourth is sell the boat and get one with less wood if possible...
 
Re: Morrells

I'll second (third or fouth) the use of Morrells. The refinished the after cabin on my Discus and it looks as good as new.

Fortunately I've not yet had to strip off the old stuff on the bulkheads, but when stripping the cabin sole found that the varnish & lacquer specific Nitromors worked where the general purpose Nitromors paint remover didn't. Worth a try?
 
Re: But then...

Looks like someone doesnt know how to use a belt or ROS /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif You can go down to 240 grit and then 360 grit and then buff or keep going on the grades of sand paper . Wiping the last coat with a damp/dry cloth is a good idea for a perfect finish but not a wet cloth as that will raise the grain to much and you may aswell sand the lot off and start again .
I find 240 grit does the job as a buff on the ROS , a quick wipe with pure turps and a light rub down by hand (no block as you cant feel the raised grain ) and its ready for the next coat ...... and it goes on .....and on ...... and on .....
P.S i dont know why i said there should be a burr on a cabinet scraper , no burr !
 
Look at the state of my interior woodwork - thanks for responses

I've just got back to the forum after a couple of days down on the boat (cabling!) .

Gee... what a response ! There seems to be as many ways to tackle this problem as there are advisors!. All appreciated though, and I'm sure every approach has its own merits.
To get my head around the reponses, and to assist anyone else reading this thread, here is a summary of the responses so far, and our half-assed plan based on the melting pot.

Since the original post, we've had some success with Nitromors removing the westerly lacquer on a test piece (interior anchor locker hatch, non-veneered). <u>We're probably going to try Nitromors (concerned about sanding through the veneer). </u> I read somewhere along the way to be carefull about nitromors softening the glue used to actually hold the veneered surfaces together - carefull around the edges where the veneer is exposed then !.
We got some 3M paint/varnish remover scotchbrite pads to help agiting the nitromors after its been on for a while, and a harris scraper (best we can find locally) to <u>attempt some (very delicate) scraping to get the goo off.</u> The Nitromors can suggests leave it on for a few minutes, but herself found better success with piling lots of it on (enough not to dry out) and waiting 20 minutes or so.

We'll feel our way, but <u>whatever the Nitromors doesnt remove we'll probably try sanding with 300-400+ sandpaper, with a block to avoid finger marks</u> . I ruined a veneered desk years ago with a power sander in 10 seconds flat, so I'm nervous !
I think we will avoid power-sanding for the moment unless we are still at it after a week...

As regards finishing, I've seen photos on the web of boats finished in the Morells Lacquer (the one westerly apparently used) and it looks quite good. see http://www.inadee.co.uk/headlinings.htm. He's been using this lacquer for years, but I doubt if he started from where I'm at.
From what I can read, <u>I suspect the polyurethane varnishes (eg. International Goldspar widely available locally, or International Perfection two-pack varnish for really heavy protection) will give a stronger protection in the high-wear areas such as the companionway steps.</u> The only concern I have about the two-part varnish is that (a) its apparently impossible to get off (Nitromors admit it on the tin!), and (b) I dont think you can cover it later with anything else other than two-pack varnish - unless you go back to bare wood again!
So, if I get it stripped ok, <u>I will probably stick with Goldspar for the steps - and look into Morells for the interior shelves, bulkheads etc</u> . which get less abuse and are in better condition.
If the stripping is a disaster, maybe I'll try Cetol Marine as someone suggested to try and cover the patches up.

Although I think an enamel paint might look ok, it wont look as well as nicely finished wood, and will devalue most likely the boat, but its there as a last resort. Although I have one handy, I think I will avoid the wallpaper stripper since the steps (the first project) are veneered & it might lift the veneer.

So, appreciate all the responses.... We'll change tactics if the above doesnt work, plenty of theories to choose from ! Now, if someone could just enlighten me as to which is the "right" answer... :-)

many thanks all,
Aidan & Oonagh

SCRAPERS
"...I would try a tungsten carbide scraper, such as the Harris on from screwfix.
with or without hot air gun...."

"....If it were mine I would try very carefully with a proper cabinet scraper. A cabinet scraper is a flat piece of stainless steel, normally rectangular in shape. Don't bother with any DIY type scrapers. Sharpen the scraper by holding it in a vice and crossfiling it to produce a slight burr along the edge....."

"....Yes try the paint stripper. The tungsten scraper someone suggested sounds interesting. Might get one myself. Just to clarify this is what I had in mind. ..." reference to http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp?p...le=1&jump=0 "Lie-Nielsen Cabinet Scraper Set"

"...Yes fully agree, proper cabinet scraper.
These should be TOOL steel not SS.
Sharpened true with a fine file by draw-filing,
This gives you 8 cutting edges,
it is useful to grind one end into a slight curve for doing difficilt bits.
Care must be taken that the long edges dont become hollow as you are inclined to sharpen the middle more than the corners...."

"...Agree with the use of scrapers - used VERY carefully..."

"..people use glass as a scrapper with excellent results.."

"...Yes use a scrapper, old varnish will usually flake off with a good sharp blade.
getting into the edges is a problem though and if you dont then when you varnish over it will show..."

CHEMICAL STRIPPER (Nitromors etc.)

"...On my Fulmar I stripped the sole with ordinary paint stripper.Two aplications got most of the varnish off and then I washed and lightly sanded it.Doing it on the boat may prove to be a bit messy.I wouldn't sand the veneered areas as it is too agressive.
In your case I would apply Nitromors very liberaly and then rub it off with some wire wool and water.It is important to always go with the grain not across it..."


"....Yes use stripper, you will need more than one coat. Agitate with wire wool.
Use an orbital sander but not a belt sander, finish by hand ....."

"....So the question is how to safely remove that grey and produce an even surface ready for relacquering,
You should not need to use powertools if you use the right chemical stripper,use a scraper to lift away the softened goop,try wire wool in multigrade packs on the stubborn bits,neutralise with thinners frequently to avoid more staining..."

"...First thing is to get the wood smooth. The cabinet scraper will have shown its worth here, an alternative is a stanley knife blade.."

"...Fortunately I've not yet had to strip off the old stuff on the bulkheads, but when stripping the cabin sole found that the varnish & lacquer specific Nitromors worked where the general purpose Nitromors paint remover didn't. Worth a try?..."


SANDING
"...That looks like a good sanding will do the trick . I wouldnt bother with anything other than sand paper or scrapers unless i had to . A belt sander would be quicker if you can remove the panels but as said a ROS is safer if you have never used a belt sander . The new style scrapers are great for removing material and far better than the cabinet scrapers with a burr but i agree a cabinet scraper with a burr is better for a good finish , not much in it though ..."

"....Yes use stripper, you will need more than one coat. Agitate with wire wool.
Use an orbital sander but not a belt sander, finish by hand ....."

"...I suggest you leave out the belt sander. Your veneer, I am sure, is more like 1/2mm than 2mm." [note from op: Yes, I've re-checked - the veneer is probably 1mm max]

"...Veneers on plywood tend to be very thin, so I'd strip with nitromors or similar to get off the existing varnish,..."

"...sand in line with the grain using sandpaper on a flat wooden block,I would apply 80 grit to the grye and then 120grit over all,wipe off and lacquer when the air and the wood are not damp,so ideal spring job..."

"...If sanding by hane with resaonably fine paper, you are not likely to do much damage to the veneer - hard work though! ..."

"...in any event you want to use gentle sandpaper to gradually gradually flatten the wood surface. ..."

WHAT RE-FINISH ?

"...5 coats of polyurathane gloss varnish ( it doesn't have to be an expensive one from a chandlery.)
Then 2 coats of rubbed effect varnish (sorry I have forgotten who makes this, dutch I think - expensive buy at the chandlery). This si much more tricky to apply well, hence all the main coats are in thecheaper gloss.
The result will be almost as good as the day the boat was sold..."

"...I would seriously consider using the lacquer that Westerly originally used. It is fantastic to use, fully touch dries within 1/2 hour and is very hard and durable. My Fulmar looks like it has just been built...."

[note from Op: from my own research on the original westerly finish (on the westerly owners association website/forums)... it is "Matt, Low Odour, Acid Curing Lacquer" http://www.morrells.co.uk/coatings/acid/acid450.php .. the 20% sheen stuff is apparently what Westerly used. They used a Spray application, but apparently it can be done by hand also. check out the Westerly owners assocation website for "Morells"

"...Westerly lacquer worked well because there is a very good teak veneer there that produced not a dark interior but a surprisingly light and very classy,tough finish,as brightwork goes.
And the lacquer is easy and economical to apply and will be forgiving in the sense that you are putting like on like.
..."

"...Suggest you talk with them [ie. Morells, suppliers or original Westerly lacquer] Tony O'Connor, technical; Scott Drayton, sales;Tony Cambell MD: as at end 2004. ..."

"...I'll second (third or fouth) the use of Morrells. The refinished the after cabin on my Discus and it looks as good as new..."


"...Scrape off as much as you can and then use something like Sikkens Cetol light wood coating. This has a colour to it that will take care of all the little bits..."

"...I too like Sikkens, varnish is fine if you like the deep shine of the traditional, I always use it for floors as anything matt/silk always looks so gloomy. .."


"...try restoring the colour with a branded colour restorer before sanding lightly to an even colour. Then I'd re-varnish using something that really soaks in to the wood..."

"...The woodwork in my Fisher wheel house was also very sundried and poor. I rubbed with sandpaper by hand anything that would come easily, and then, before varnishing, painted it all with boiled linseed oil. This restored the colour surprisingly well. It needed a few days to dry off properly and then I revarnished it. I must say that the result pleased me.
..."

JUST PATCH IT UP & GO SAILIING!
"....My way of boating with regard to cosmetics is don't spend too long but make it look alot better than before you started and then go sailing.
Scrape off as much as you can and then use something like Sikkens Cetol light wood coating. This has a colour to it that will take care of all the little bits. As mentioned, the danger is going through the veneer. ..."

"...leave it OR if you really must, knock off the roughest bits with sandpaper, wipe dry, use a slightly darker stained varnish and a hand roller to avoid big brush marks. Don't roughly-revarnish big horizontal surfaces cos they'll look really godawful..."

"...use the bodgers dream - stained oil so it all goes sort of satinified or at least not raw wood, no drip marks or brushmarks, but test a small bit to see if it's ok first...."

"...sell the boat and get one with less wood if possible..."

WALLPAPER STRIPPER
"...But get this trick: try a steam wallpaper stripper with a small shoe. 3" x 6" or so. you just heat up a small patch of varnish and scrape it off with the cabinet scraper. Much better than a hot air gun as the steam goes through the paint a bit and releases it from the wood or GRP. I removed ten coats of polyurethane from the whole of a 25ft boat with that..."

"...Do that [ie. reference to wallpaper stripper above] and you will be straight through the veneer. If it is veneer??...."

DIFFERENT FINISH (ie. heavy dark stain or paint)
"...I think you may have to go for a completly different finnish. Heavily coloured varnish? trouble here is, you must go darker, or maybe paint..."

"...I would consider going for a more modern, brighter look by getting the paint (rather than varnish) brush out, and painting the large flat (veneered?) areas, while keeping the solid timber (?) edge mouldings varnished - you get a very nice contrast by doing this, and it makes everything down below much brighter..."

"...I agree with you [ie. about painting]. I think the large expanses of varnished plywood seen on so many boats make the interior dark and gloomy; like living inside a cigar box. Also an old boat will have many old fastener holes, dents, scratches which can easily be filled in and then disguised with paint. ..."

"...Do consider paint it will brighten things up, is easier to do and maintain, just keep some of the old wood to retain the quality feel without the gloom..."

"...If you run out of time or are not satisfied with your first area you can always paint the main bulkheads white as suggested...."

"...A nice coat of paint could be the answer!!!! ..."

"...With an eye to resale I would not want to paint it, if it were mine. ..."

TECHNICAL DETAILED REPONSES
see tcm's post ... very detailed.I reckon he's done this before. Basically sanding (very gradual, fine paper) & varnishing route....
 
That is an excellent summary above! You could write a book now re all the possible ways of re-doing varnish......

Just a thought, re areas of heavy wear / usage like your companionway steps - when I built ours (of simple pine) I just applied a couple of coats of clear WEST epoxy and that gives a nice finish, while being pretty hard wearing - its been on for 10 years now, and has had no attention in the meantime - I should really touch it up sometime with a quick sand and another coat of resin......
 
The main problem seems to be the discolouration of the veneer. I suggest you try varnish on a very small sample of discoloured wood. If the varnish gives a reasonable surface then continue. The worst surfce shown was where your boots go all the time.
Next try recolouring another sample with oxalic acid solution. It s easy enough to do and might work.
If you have to scrape then do it very carefully. Ive been scraping my pine bathroom floor with a 5a scalpel blade to get rid of excess yellow stopping and thats a long job too. The 5a blade is curved so no digs.
You might consider hiding the problem with more veneer or possibly something stronger. Brass, Stainless sheet, Formica?
 
Best way I have ever come across to remove hard varnish. Break some glass into long shards. break the shards into four inch long pieces. scrap off the varnish with the edge of the glass and glass will not dig into woodwork. Comes off a treat in no time at all and not too messy. Corners a bit tricky. then lightly sand area and revarnish. goodness only knows where I got that indispencable tip from. But I have striped and varnished an old bed with this method and boy does it work well and cheap too.
 
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