Long term plans, realistic scenario for circumnavigation?

[SiteSurfer]

Just to preface this, our plans are at best lines in the sand at the moment, but finances are not - we have a pretty clear view on what's achievable and what we want to do - I'm just curious about some things I've read recently and seen on the Tube.

The wife and I are planning (together and mutually) for about 8 years hence when I'm of an age to retire early(ish) and go off and do something that involves living on a boat and travelling. Kids will be grown up enough and house is sorted (we aim to rent it out, assuming its not all red taped out of existence by then) and both of us can cope with having less and we both buy in to the idea.

We currently own a Bavaria 36 of 2003 ilk (37.5ft), nice boat and great for us at the moment allthough (in my opinion) a bit tender allthough nothing a reef early doesnt fix. The interior is sound and solid and it's in rather nice condition - but needs stuff like the sail drive, rigging and all the cordage changing - a process which i was going to do in stages at the same time as other stuff like autopilots, networks and all the other stuff that we do ad infinitum!

After some discussions we've come to a bit of a cross roads in our thoughts about the boat itself, whilst we are happy to put the money into it, we are starting to wonder if this is the boat for the future, the one that we go off in. I'm of the opinion that any boart that we go off for an extended period in would need to be somewhat differently kitted out than for a weekend/week holiday boat but that whilst we have something like 6 years to go before making that decision - I'd rather not be sailing a clunky overspecced crusing boat for weekends away.

Our dilemma is really this: should we accept that we may not be able to afford another boat - stick with what we have and kit it out slowly for the great adventure or not do anything at all and wait for years until we "might" change boats again. I've only got the cash once to kit out - and whilst of course I'm earning and we can save - we also don't want our current boat to fall apart as its still going to be used a reasonable amount more than most boats in marinas these days (I spend about 3 weekends a month all year on the boat).

Bottom line - Bavaria 36 for moderated and sensible circumnavigation (I'm talking about taking a year to plod down to the med for starters for instance) or is this kind of boat simply too light, not designed for it and under specced for what we intend to do? Its got a litany of things that I keep hearing/seeing adverse comments about like spade rudder, shoal draft, tender handling, aft cockpit etc etc..

However - an awful lot of those comments come from folks who have a 1972 long keel something or other - who have a vested interest in avoiding the discussion about modern(ish) boats as they have come from a different background to us and are well versed in the "traditional" way of doing stuff - so I think I'm looking for an opinion whether we could spend the money keeping current boat up to date and go in that - i simply can not whatsoever purchase another boat now or within the near future unless i swap this one for some 1980's thing that the wife will hate - but would do the job.

What would you do? Or are you in this position? Our conversations at home go round and round on this subject and we don't seem to be able to reach any form of reasonable solution.

 

[[70521]]

You may want a look at Guidos Sailing Channel on YouTube as he sails a similar boat.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDJIgr5AVMYuQnS_eugSvlA/videos

And think about the way forward.

 

[SiteSurfer]

Oh! that's one that we haven't seen.

So far we've been feasting on Wandering Steve, Bora Bora, Sailing Florence, Kittiwake, Sail Life (sanding made fun),Learning the lines,Dylan, Patrick and just about anything else that is not bikini's and cats.

 

[[70521]]

Oh! that's one that we haven't seen.

So far we've been feasting on Wandering Steve, Bora Bora, Sailing Florence, Kittiwake, Sail Life (sanding made fun),Learning the lines,Dylan, Patrick and just about anything else that is not bikini's and cats.

For some hardcore sailing try

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUH6fLsV6J7WKEmf7vJKfAw

I am in the process of "upgrading" my Gib'Sea 96 for some long voyages, both Patrick and Erik have convinced me that a single handed trip to Fareo is a must before I head for warmer waters.

 

[FlyingGoose]

Nonsense you Bavaria will handle it , your not expecting to go out in storm force winds and as most people are doing following the Milk run and keeping a good idea on the weather ,
A bluewater boat needs to be safe , comfortable (for you and other) and have the equipment to handle it , look at your autopilot , go for a windvane (as well) decent AIS, Radar, good cruising sails , get the rigging checked and replaced were needed , and go for it
Heading out myself in 2 years in a Moody 42 ,
Aft cockpit , no Davits , and a heavy beast , but Im in no hurry I am going out to sail and being on the water is were I want to be
Go For it plent of Bavaria's have done it and will keep doing it , you will hear 2 sides to every story but if your happy stuff them all

 

[[3889]]

We have a similar (Jeanneau) boat to you and my two concerns about trans ocean sailing are the strength of the standing rigging and rudder protection. The first is easy to beef up and I have mused about fairing a half skeg into the hull and/or commissioning a bespoke rudder. Realistically, I think a more suitable blue water boat would be a better option: I favour Ovnis...at the moment.
As an aside, I'm not sure what particular value AIS offers to blue water cruising, unless you're shorthanded and want to sleep at sea in the hope that you won't encounter a vessel without AIS. An interesting distraction but not much else.

 

[Kelpie]

What's the water tankage on the Bavaria?

Plenty of spade rudders cruising bluewater these days. Wouldn't be my choice but if I already had the boat I don't think I would change just for that reason. And you could always go belt and braces and make up an emergency rudder with transom mounts.

There's a lot to be said for knowing your boat inside out, and being able to trust it, and being able to maintain and repair it. A big plus for the boat you already have.

There's also ways of adding resilience. An inner forestay and hank on genoa, in case your furler packs up. Manual water tap in case of pump or electrical failure. Below decks autopilot in case of steering cable failure- and a Hydrovane too for good measure.

 

[FlyingGoose]

We have a similar (Jeanneau) boat to you and my two concerns about trans ocean sailing are the strength of the standing rigging and rudder protection. The first is easy to beef up and I have mused about fairing a half skeg into the hull and/or commissioning a bespoke rudder. Realistically, I think a more suitable blue water boat would be a better option: I favour Ovnis...at the moment.
As an aside, I'm not sure what particular value AIS offers to blue water cruising, unless you're shorthanded and want to sleep at sea in the hope that you won't encounter a vessel without AIS. An interesting distraction but not much else.

I think AIS and radar are essentail for an ocean crossing now, the seas are becoming more crowded with commercial craft and it is nice to be alerted to them in a dark night 5 days into a long voyage and all crew are tired , to have an alert even if it is 20 miles away allows you to just keep an eye on it
Radar will do this as well , but will not give you their call sign , which you can then call them up and say naughty words if they ar not getting out of your way in a timley manner
OFC people sail all over without these high tech soultions , but people live in Mud huts as well , what would you choose
IMHO OFC But I will have everything that will aid me and make my life that little bit less stressfull and safer so I can gaze at the stars and watch the bioluminescent go by at my pleasure

 

[BobnLesley]

Bavaria...Wouldn't be my choice but if I already had the boat I don't think I would change...There's a lot to be said for knowing your boat inside out, and being able to trust it, and being able to maintain and repair it...There's also ways of adding resilience...

There's a lot worth listening to in this one. Neither your Bav or any other modern lightweight would be my first choice, but as noted, lots have gone around; within reason it's really not about the boat, it's crews that make or break it on ocean crossings.
There's also a lot to be said for sailing 'the boat you know' we sailed around Europe for several years and changed boats only six months ahead of turning west to cross the Atlantic and for the first couple of years our biggest hassles came in dealing with breakdowns/maintenance; we just didn't 'know' the boat well enough.

Worth remembering also: If you like your current boat and it's already served you well, then if/when it does give you a problem you're more likely to forgive it than you would the one that you've spent serious money replacing it with because it's perceived to be better suited.

 

[Billyo]

Have you both done distance non stop sailing on the boat? As in a week out of site of land, perhaps head south west from the scilly Isles for three days and nd then come back? If not do it and see how you feel, I've met a number of couples in the south pacific who headed off on the milk run and then four weeks later decided that they would prefer to cross an ocean with an extra pair of hands but just don't have the space for it when taking into account the toys on board plus supplies and provisions needed.

 

[GHA]

Tricky one... and no real answer of course, it's a boat

Lots like yours girdle the world so it can certainly do it, though definitely many designs better suited. A lot of cruisers prefer something beefier and heavier, more stable at anchor ( where most of your time will be spent) , can cope with all the extra weight - which is lots! Watching the amount of rubbish out in the oceans might make you interested in something less exposed than a spade rudder.

One option would be to keep an eye out for something that's spent time bluewater and already has the systems like power (lots solar), better anchoring, self steering etc and the million and one little tweaks that evolve over time on full time cruising boats. Easier to replace tired than start afresh installing stuff.

Big plus for the Bav is you have it already!!

This is very much towards the budget end but well worth a read as an insight into outfitting and maintaining a long term cruising boat>
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00638SJII/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_tkin_p1_i1


Another bluewater youtube..
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC7DRvfDAoFn5eMyfTnaA8w

 

[SiteSurfer]

Interesting last point, I've done longish passages on other boats and on my last one (which was 30ft) and am doing a 3 week cruise - which we hope weather permitting will take in either the Isles of Scilly or France in about 4 weeks time. Sadly time restricts the sailing area, which I guess is not an unusual situation for modern couples.

I'm lucky in that we've been together for 30 odd years now and have reached the point where co-existing is'nt a challenge.

With regard to the boat, I have to admit to suprise that folks are responding as they are, I was half expecting to be told that we were suicidal to attempt things like this in a less than 46ft boat with long keel and skeg hung rudder, I'm under absolutely no illusion that we would have to choose our moments and there will be times when its either not practical to proceed or very uncomfortable if caught out, but I'd hope that weather predictions and the ammassing of knowledge would have progressed for both us and the world in general by some degree when the time comes.

The rational of coast hopping south for the first year was to establish a routine, an understanding of how we would exist without throwing us at the sharp end in the first month, there would of course have been at leats 6 months of staying in the UK and working on the boat previous to this (and if we do keep the same boat - then obviously a continuation of the existing maintenance) .

Please do keep the observations coming, so far I'm really appreciating the responses - it's giving us more conversation points and to be absolutely frank, a very encouraging starting position.

 

[SiteSurfer]

What's the water tankage on the Bavaria?

There's also ways of adding resilience. An inner forestay and hank on genoa, in case your furler packs up. Manual water tap in case of pump or electrical failure. Below decks autopilot in case of steering cable failure- and a Hydrovane too for good measure.

Our model has 2 x 160ltr tanks, one forward and one aft to the port which is balanced by an equal sized diesel tank to the starboard.
I've looked at adding a staysail + inner foresaty and cant see any reason why thats imparactical - seems to be plenty of room.
I'm already carrying spares of water pumps, hoses, clips (much to my wife's annoyance) which I store under the forepeak berth, but the idea of a manual fallback is one I should definately achieve.

Next year I will be replacing the somewhat spotty wheel pilot with a Type 1 Evo AP having just replaced the chart plotter with an Axiom 9 and installing an N2K network so thats part of the ongoing plans (as you can see - hence my dilemma about chucking it all away with another boat).

The wife has now spotted many windvanes on boats and we are having serious discussions about placements on the current boat, there is some worry about access to the bathing platform (and hence dinghy) with a socking great chunk of windvance in the way!

 

[GHA]

there would of course have been at leats 6 months of staying in the UK and working on the boat previous to this .

Sod that!

Go somewhere nice to do that.

 

[dom]

Its got a litany of things that I keep hearing/seeing adverse comments about like spade rudder, shoal draft, tender handling, aft cockpit etc etc..

However - an awful lot of those comments come from folks who have a 1972 long keel something or other - who have a vested interest in avoiding the discussion about modern(ish) boats as they have come from a different background to us and are well versed in the "traditional" way of doing stuff - so I think

As others have said, many have circumnavigated in such boats and the modern vs MAB arguments do indeed live largely in the minds of a generation from a different era.

That said, a Bav 36, is it truly big enough and of a suitable type? Aside from creature comforts, its size will limit its carrying capacity and nicities such as watermakers and gens would soon overload. Also the AVS of 121 (good) and STIX of 33 (32 is the minimum for CAT A) allow little margin for error. Extra fuel on deck, provisioning, radar, windvanes, furling gear, inner stays, beefed-up rigging, etc., will all diminish these numbers -- possibly to dangerous levels.

You mention 46' boats and avoiding inclement weather - I've been flattened by a wave in a much bigger boat than that while trying to line-dance a gaggle of depressions! It's not always possible.

So I'm going to take the other side of this and sadly suggest NO. For I honestly think you'd regret it.
Sorry :ambivalence:

 

[FlyingGoose]

Our model has 2 x 160ltr tanks, one forward and one aft to the port which is balanced by an equal sized diesel tank to the starboard.
I've looked at adding a staysail + inner foresaty and cant see any reason why thats imparactical - seems to be plenty of room.
I'm already carrying spares of water pumps, hoses, clips (much to my wife's annoyance) which I store under the forepeak berth, but the idea of a manual fallback is one I should definately achieve.

Next year I will be replacing the somewhat spotty wheel pilot with a Type 1 Evo AP having just replaced the chart plotter with an Axiom 9 and installing an N2K network so thats part of the ongoing plans (as you can see - hence my dilemma about chucking it all away with another boat).

The wife has now spotted many windvanes on boats and we are having serious discussions about placements on the current boat, there is some worry about access to the bathing platform (and hence dinghy) with a socking great chunk of windvance in the way!

There is always the compromise of the windvane , and the space it takes up , some peole love them others not so , again it is a marmite problem
A good heavy auto pilot upgraded in size is a good plan
Look at your tankage for water and diesel , a water maker might be a good idea
good Anchor and around 80m to 100m of chain allowing you full access to anchorages
Fans retrofitted if not , and USB ports
Sat phone or iridium Go is a good idea for saftey and Grib weather , and a wee chat to let loved ones know your ok in the middle of the Atlantic , there is just no Wind
Skeg is an advantage for protecting your rudder , but not a deal breaker , plenty of AWBs sailing the Atlantic Circuit
Keep items to a minimal , we can triple carry everything but weight and perfromance is an issues , most things can be bought abroad or sent via courier , take the essentials
Good safey gear , including lifejackets and Offshore liferaft
But one of the most important and has been mentioned , you know your boat inside out and this is vital for good and happy sailing :encouragement:
I go in 2 years with 2 dogs one Daughter, and I might take the Wife if she behaves So already have 3 years reading preparing and learning , which is all you can do
Goodd luck and keep asking quesitons

 

[Frank Holden]

Our model has 2 x 160ltr tanks, one forward and one aft to the port which is balanced by an equal sized diesel tank to the starboard.
I've looked at adding a staysail + inner foresaty and cant see any reason why thats imparactical - seems to be plenty of room.
I'm already carrying spares of water pumps, hoses, clips (much to my wife's annoyance) which I store under the forepeak berth, but the idea of a manual fallback is one I should definately achieve.

Next year I will be replacing the somewhat spotty wheel pilot with a Type 1 Evo AP having just replaced the chart plotter with an Axiom 9 and installing an N2K network so thats part of the ongoing plans (as you can see - hence my dilemma about chucking it all away with another boat).

The wife has now spotted many windvanes on boats and we are having serious discussions about placements on the current boat, there is some worry about access to the bathing platform (and hence dinghy) with a socking great chunk of windvance in the way!

Some thoughts...
Rudders.... there are good skegs and bad skegs just as there are good and bad spades.... saw a boat last year where for some months the only thing holding the skeg on had been the rudder...
Water... sounds good to me.... I have 400 litres... can and have done several 45 day passages with 3 aboard and have only used a little over 200 litres. You have to accept that you are at sea and that life is a little different than in port.... as they say... 'no one smells on a submarine'.
Make sure you have a salt water pump in the galley ... and a foot pump for the FW... and turn you pressure pump off at sea...
Passage making ... a windvane is a lot more important that a 'bathing platform'.......
Last but not least... I can not imagine making any sort of sea passage without an inner forestay and hanked on storm jibs.... not just for when your furler has a hissy fit but just for heavy weather.... keeps the centre of effort nice and low.

Hope this helps,
Frank,
Westerly Sealord.

 

[SiteSurfer]

Some thoughts...
Passage making ... a windvane is a lot more important that a 'bathing platform'.......
.

And I'm with you there, but the wife is blessed with the shortest legs ever seen on a human (or at least that's what it feels like) with the result that despite fender steps it's a challenge to board the dinghy safely alongside as the boat has really high topsides. I'm going to hazard a guess however that the benefit of the vane on passage outweighs the annoyance of squeezing around it at anchorage?

 

[lw395]

And I'm with you there, but the wife is blessed with the shortest legs ever seen on a human (or at least that's what it feels like) with the result that despite fender steps it's a challenge to board the dinghy safely alongside as the boat has really high topsides. I'm going to hazard a guess however that the benefit of the vane on passage outweighs the annoyance of squeezing around it at anchorage?

That's a matter of opinion really.
If you go around the world following typical yacht routes for an AWB, how many really long passages are there?
You might find there are about 20 days when vane gear is a real improvement on autopilot.
If you are 3-up or more, hand steering if the pilot breaks won't actually prevent you getting anywhere.
And the relaibility of vane gear is not 100% either, it tends not to get the problems sorted out until you've done a few long passages, I know people who've had it fail before half across the Atlantic.
It's really only essential for singlehanders with limited electrical power.

 

[SiteSurfer]

A good heavy auto pilot upgraded in size is a good plan

From what I can gather, the Evo 1 Type 1 is most suitable for the boat, need to get a tiller arm made for the post.

Look at your tankage for water and diesel , a water maker might be a good idea

Been looking with interest at the prospect of a self build system, allowing us to fit it where we want. Ryan and Sophie's recent video was a useful pointer for that.
I'm looking at a reasonable space under the lateral berth on the port side where nothing else goes, failing that in the cavernous aft locker (2 cabin boat).

good Anchor and around 80m to 100m of chain allowing you full access to anchorages

Manson Supreme 15kg at the moment, considering next size up + 8mm chain - have 65m at the moment, am intruiged about the getting a very high quality 6mm chain and more length debate.

Fans retrofitted if not , and USB ports

I have a Thermocool box (bought on a whim last boat show) which there's not been enough warmth to test yet! Fans are a great idea - really need to understand the concept of being too warm..
Switched USB sockets are retro fitted in each cabin, plus waterproof one on the binnacle.

Sat phone or iridium Go is a good idea for saftey and Grib weather , and a wee chat to let loved ones know your ok in the middle of the Atlantic , there is just no Wind

Check, that's a good idea. I think thats a future purchase. I like the idea of the weather routing in Predict Wind.

Good safey gear , including lifejackets and Offshore liferaft

Just fitted new jackstays (removeable and stored inside when not in use), lifejackets are religously serviced each year but will need to probably replace them when we go - with offshore versions with hoods, plb's and so forth.
I hire a liferaft at the moment, was having a conversation about the next gen ones with a supplier. Apparently the new ones are lighter and smaller than the older ones - so in a few years time who knows?